Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
04:48:19 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Peter Vos remarked:

I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
opposite side of the train.

The only one on that section of the line.

That means the doors that open at KX are
not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.

That is certainly a possibility.

The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?

In the UK we tend not abbreviate places like that. Edgware is a suburb
in north London, and Liverpool a big city halfway to Scotland.

You would definitely get as far as Liverpool St, however Edgware Road
also has island platforms, bit I cannot from memory tell you if a Circle
Line train might open the righthand doors there. It wouldn't have done
so earlier in the trip from Kings Cross.

Were the blasts on the
204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?

I have seen no reports that would either confirm or deny the theory.

If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.

I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
or nearly the same time?

If there's clockwise one circle line train every 10 minutes
(you'd have
to check what the interval actually is) and they are stopped at the
station for 30 seconds (again, check) then you'd have a 1 in 20 chance
that at any instant there was such a train stopped at the station. If
you start the observation when an anticlockwise circle line train enters
the station, and end it when it leaves, then it doesn't alter the
probability very much.

Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day. There is a
schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
approaching. If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.

This assumes there's no particular timetable, adhered to, which might

There is a timetable, but the more critical thing is the spacing out of
cars.

mean that there were always, or never, two circle line trains on either
side of the island. (The island is also very wide, with connecting
passages linking two running tunnels, rather than being a narrow "open
air" island; so you don't tend to see trains on both sides at once
unless you stand at the very eastern end.)

The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.


Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening, you will certainly catch a break before 9:00


Similarly, the trip to the Piccadilly line and the wait there can be
very unpredictable because of crowds, non-operational escalators, and
earlier problems with the Piccadilly line which have been mentioned
elsewhere. You might easily get to the Piccadilly line platform and find
no trains at all!

That's why I was budgeting as much time as possible by having the first
two trains as close together in time as possible.


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.

If the scheme you are suggesting was what happened, then the people were
lucky to get the package on board the Piccadilly train when they did -
only perhaps 45 seconds before it detonated.

That is true, and suggests they were flying off the escalator to get to
the train before it left. It also suggests some serious nerve to be
rushing for a train with a ticking time bomb. This suggests someone
with demolition experience (probably former military) and maybe even
combat experience.

--
Roland Perry

In message .com, at
07:31:16 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked:

Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day.

On the Circle, I doubt it. Or did the question actually refer to any
kind of train on the line?

There is a
schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
approaching.

When asking questions about things like this it's important to be
precise!

If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.

So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long
before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes
would be a sensible answer.

The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.

Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then
that would suggest the same position on the platform.

Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening,

I think we have pretty much established that the original question was
wrong.

you will certainly catch a break before 9:00

And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses
preset to that time).

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
07:31:16 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked:

Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day.

On the Circle, I doubt it. Or did the question actually refer to any
kind of train on the line?

There is a
schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
approaching.

When asking questions about things like this it's important to be
precise!

If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.

So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long
before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes
would be a sensible answer.

The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.

Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then
that would suggest the same position on the platform.

according to BBC eastbound was 2nd car and westbound was also 2nd car,
although the police said floor of 3rd car.


Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening,

I think we have pretty much established that the original question was
wrong.

you will certainly catch a break before 9:00

And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses
preset to that time).

I thought we were talking statistically here. If you have 5 to 7
trains passing in a given direction over the course of half an hour and
a 1 in 5 chance that you will have trains in opposite directions
converging on the platform, then at SOME POINT during the half hour you
are virtually guaranteed of this happening at least once.

Given the time of detonation and the relative distances from KXSP, it
looks like that convergence would have to occur around 8:38 to 8:40


--
Roland Perry

In message . com, at
08:54:40 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked:
If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.

So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long
before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes
would be a sensible answer.

The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.

Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then
that would suggest the same position on the platform.

according to BBC eastbound was 2nd car and westbound was also 2nd car,
although the police said floor of 3rd car.

So not in the same place "across" the island platform. To place one on a
2nd car and then the other on a second car would mean you'd have to
cross the island and then walk three or four cars along.

As an addition piece of information: the only access to the platforms
from the outside world is roughly in the centre of the train, because
the "island" is very large (with a booking office and other things in
the middle) and the way it's laid out you have to go through a ticket
barrier that's about halfway down, and between, the platforms. Just to
complicate things, you exit [but not enter] through barriers at the
eastern end of the island.

Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening,

I think we have pretty much established that the original question was
wrong.

you will certainly catch a break before 9:00

And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses
preset to that time).

I thought we were talking statistically here. If you have 5 to 7
trains passing in a given direction over the course of half an hour and
a 1 in 5 chance that you will have trains in opposite directions
converging on the platform, then at SOME POINT during the half hour you
are virtually guaranteed of this happening at least once.

There are more trains than that if you allow the use of Metropolitan and
Hammersmith/City trains as well as Circle. They all share the same pair
of platforms. As for the statistics, then if you want strictly *Circle*
line trains, then sod's law says it may never happen. But if you want
*any* trains, it will be happening every few minutes.

Although I'm not sure *why* the trains have to leave in opposite
directions at the same time for the bomber's plan to succeed. Perhaps
you can explain why you think this is the case. Also, whether or not the
timers were set to be 8.50 *before* the bomber knew which trains they
were going to be put on.

Given the time of detonation and the relative distances from KXSP, it
looks like that convergence would have to occur around 8:38 to 8:40

Working backwards, that seems to make sense. But would it have mattered
if one of the trains had been 3 minutes closer or further away at 8.50?
--
Roland Perry

They are claiming 4 guys based on CCTV ... which is odd...why have 4
when you are going to do 3 bombs in the Underground? Why have a guy in
the Underground who will be blowing up a bus later?

In article m,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

according to BBC eastbound was 2nd car and westbound was also 2nd car,
although the police said floor of 3rd car.

So not in the same place "across" the island platform. To place one on
a 2nd car and then the other on a second car would mean you'd have to
cross the island and then walk three or four cars along.

A factor not to ignore is that the are between the platforms isn't all
open at King's Cross so not exactly cross-platform at the East end of the
Met platforms.

But this is all academic if, as the police have said today, the explosions
were all caused by suicide bombers.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at
21:31:00 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
A factor not to ignore is that the are between the platforms isn't all
open at King's Cross so not exactly cross-platform at the East end of the
Met platforms.

Indeed, and as I described at some length earlier. I was pretty sure the
person describing the theory thought it was a simple island platform.

But this is all academic if, as the police have said today, the explosions
were all caused by suicide bombers.

Yes, but before that news broke, it was still worthwhile trying to set
the scene correctly. The theorists had some very strange ideas about the
layout at the various parts of the KX complex.
--
Roland Perry

In article m,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message , at
21:31:00 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
A factor not to ignore is that the are between the platforms isn't all
open at King's Cross so not exactly cross-platform at the East end of
the Met platforms.

Indeed, and as I described at some length earlier. I was pretty sure
the person describing the theory thought it was a simple island
platform.

But this is all academic if, as the police have said today, the
explosions were all caused by suicide bombers.

Yes, but before that news broke, it was still worthwhile trying to set
the scene correctly. The theorists had some very strange ideas about
the layout at the various parts of the KX complex.

Can you get treatment for that?

--
Colin Rosenstiel