Everything I've seen says the London blasts could have been the work of
a lone terrorist.

He could have arrived at King's Cross on the eastbound Circle Line
train, leaving the FIRST bomb on that train.

He could have placed the SECOND bomb on the westbound Circle Line train
without actually riding it, just getting on, leaving the bomb and
getting off.

Same with the THIRD bomb. He could have placed it on the Picadilly Line
train without actually riding the train. They say the bomb was on the
first car, right where the escalator from the lower level would have
brought the culprit. He placed the bomb on the train and then took the
escalator to the surface.

Once he reached the surface, he could have walked or taken a bus to
Euston Station. (He had plenty of time.) At Euston Station he boarded a
bus and left the FOURTH bomb under a seat at the back of the upper deck.
He then exited the bus at the first stop or maybe even before it left
Euston Station.

There doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that the bombs couldn't
all have been planted by a single individual. So, that would be the
best way to start the manhunt.

Only look for more than one individual IF it can be shown that it would
have been IMPOSSIBLE for the deed to have been done by one man. If it
COULD HAVE been done by one man, there would be no reason for involving
anyone else. More people just means more risk.

Furthermore, IF it was done by one man, the arrival times of the three
trains will literally tell you where the culprit was at almost every
minute he was inside King's Cross Station. You MAY even be able to say
he would have been in front of surveillance camera #11 at 8:40 a.m., in
front of surveillance camera #12 at 8:42 a.m. and in front of
surveillance camera #19 at 8:54 a.m.

Verify that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be the work of one man before
looking for more than one person!

Ed
anthraxinvestigation.com

OK, assuming that he got on/off the train without riding, laving a
parcel there, and not raising any suspiscion and nobody noticed it that
got off at a later stop and mentioned it to the police/media...

The bombs were timed, they exploded simultaneously. That means whoever
planted the piccadilly line one left the train seconds before the bomb
went off. That's cutting it *very* close. What if the train has been a
couple of minutes later - the bomb would have gone off in the guys
hand.

He could have arrived at King's Cross on the eastbound Circle Line
train, leaving the FIRST bomb on that train.
He could have placed the SECOND bomb on the westbound Circle Line train
without actually riding it, just getting on, leaving the bomb and
getting off.
Same with the THIRD bomb. He could have placed it on the Picadilly Line
train without actually riding the train. They say the bomb was on the
first car, right where the escalator from the lower level would have
brought the culprit. He placed the bomb on the train and then took the
escalator to the surface.

Your scenario may be plausible from the "time between different trains point
of view", but don't you thinj, that the the following might be a little
suspicious?
That would mean for bomb 1 and bomb 2 that he entered the train, preferably
as first person of the entering crowd, placing the bomb somewhere and
leaving the train at the very same station, which is KX, if I got your
theory right.
How long do trains stand in stations in general and in KX in special on
average. I guess somewhere ranging between 20s and one minute. Including the
expectedly large crowds on the platforms and IN the trains, that would put
some additional stress. Many people in the train, probably no seat to claim
- for placing the bomb beneath - just hopping on, trying to appear calm and
place what kind of bomb on whichever place and getting off at the same
station - probably hassling through the people that entered the train after
him - without causing attention ... well I don't know!

How big could a bomb have been? Was it more like the size of cell phone
(highly explosive stuff) or somewehere at the briefcase/rucksack size
(probably a bigger amount of less brisant explosives).

I can hardly imagine someone forgetting a bag in this short a time in the
small carriages full of people with nobody seeing it and getting
curious/suspicious or simply helpfull and trying to get the bag to the owner
back.
But it may be possible if London's tube-riders are as sleepy or less caring
as in Vienna.

[...]
Verify that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be the work of one man before
looking for more than one person!

Do the trains of all these involved lines so exactly on time, that the one
person could have relied upon it just by gathering the timetable information
through train-use and writing down the time. Or would it be required to have
an "inside view"?

thanks, very curious from Vienna
Tadej
--
.... aber auch bei Frauen hat das Großhirn tatsächlich eine Funktion ...
Selbst im wildestens Winterschlußverkaufrausch verstehen sie noch das Wort
"Kreditkartenlimit".
David Kastrup in d.t.r

Points that may be relevant. The Metropolitan line platforms at Kings Cross
are between the two tracks. All other stations that the two Circle line
trains passed through, with the exception of possibly Edgeware Road, the
platforms are outside of the tracks. A parcel placed just inside the doors
at Kings Cross could have lain undisturbed by people getting on and off. On
the Picadilly line trains there is luggage space just inside the doors and
even in the rush hour a parcel placed there might not have seemed out of
place.

There are warnings at Kings Cross about thieves operating on the station. A
really cunning bomber might have been "careless" with his belongings and
have had them stolen.

I too favour the one person responsible theory and I also remain to be
convinced that it was an Islamist extremist behind it all. Let's hope that
the police really are operating with an open mind on this problem. The
Prime Minister, judging by his comments, seems to have made up his already.
Maybe his conscience is troubling him.

Dave Wilcox.


"Ed Lake" wrote in message
...
Everything I've seen says the London blasts could have been the work of
a lone terrorist.

He could have arrived at King's Cross on the eastbound Circle Line
train, leaving the FIRST bomb on that train.

He could have placed the SECOND bomb on the westbound Circle Line train
without actually riding it, just getting on, leaving the bomb and
getting off.

Same with the THIRD bomb. He could have placed it on the Picadilly Line
train without actually riding the train. They say the bomb was on the
first car, right where the escalator from the lower level would have
brought the culprit. He placed the bomb on the train and then took the
escalator to the surface.

Once he reached the surface, he could have walked or taken a bus to
Euston Station. (He had plenty of time.) At Euston Station he boarded a
bus and left the FOURTH bomb under a seat at the back of the upper deck.
He then exited the bus at the first stop or maybe even before it left
Euston Station.

There doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that the bombs couldn't
all have been planted by a single individual. So, that would be the
best way to start the manhunt.

Only look for more than one individual IF it can be shown that it would
have been IMPOSSIBLE for the deed to have been done by one man. If it
COULD HAVE been done by one man, there would be no reason for involving
anyone else. More people just means more risk.

Furthermore, IF it was done by one man, the arrival times of the three
trains will literally tell you where the culprit was at almost every
minute he was inside King's Cross Station. You MAY even be able to say
he would have been in front of surveillance camera #11 at 8:40 a.m., in
front of surveillance camera #12 at 8:42 a.m. and in front of
surveillance camera #19 at 8:54 a.m.

Verify that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be the work of one man before
looking for more than one person!

Ed
anthraxinvestigation.com

Paul Weaver wrote:
OK, assuming that he got on/off the train without riding, laving a
parcel there, and not raising any suspiscion and nobody noticed it that
got off at a later stop and mentioned it to the police/media...

The bombs were timed, they exploded simultaneously. That means whoever
planted the piccadilly line one left the train seconds before the bomb
went off. That's cutting it *very* close. What if the train has been a
couple of minutes later - the bomb would have gone off in the guys
hand.

The bomb on the Picadilly Line went off after it left King's Cross.
Wasn't it somewhere near Russell Square when it went off?

If there had been any danger, he could have just inactivated the bomb.
I don't see him running around King's Cross with bombs he has no way to
inactivate.

As David Wilcox points out in this thread, there are places on the cars
for leaving things. And as I've pointed out elsewhere, what you have to
do is push your way aboard the train while it is still unloading to make
certain you get a seat, put the bomb under the seat or wherever is best,
and then leave the car with the last of the exiting passengers.

Someone else has said that during rush hour you're lucky if you can see
your own feet, much less what is under some seat.

The guy had this well planned out. It probably practiced it (without
actually leaving anything behind).

My main point is: Everyone seems to be thinking in terms of a group of
terrorists. Sorting out and investigating suspicious individuals on
surveillance tapes from DOZENS of underground stations could take
MONTHS. But, IF it was a LONE terrorist, that means there is a very
UNIQUE way to find him on the surveillance tapes. It can be done in
hours!

In the anthrax investigation back in 2001, there were two instances
where the authorities first made one false assumption, and when that
didn't prove true they made another false assumption, and when that
didn't prove true they GAVE UP. In the London attacks they're all
assuming that it was a group of terrorists. That may be a FALSE
assumption and they could be missing a very quick way to get a good
description of the guy off of surveillance tapes.

Ed
anthraxinvestigation.com

Ed Lake wrote in message
...
Everything I've seen says the London blasts could have been the work of
a lone terrorist.

He could have arrived at King's Cross on the eastbound Circle Line
train, leaving the FIRST bomb on that train.

He could have placed the SECOND bomb on the westbound Circle Line train
without actually riding it, just getting on, leaving the bomb and
getting off.

Same with the THIRD bomb. He could have placed it on the Picadilly Line
train without actually riding the train. They say the bomb was on the
first car, right where the escalator from the lower level would have
brought the culprit. He placed the bomb on the train and then took the
escalator to the surface.

Once he reached the surface, he could have walked or taken a bus to
Euston Station. (He had plenty of time.) At Euston Station he boarded a
bus and left the FOURTH bomb under a seat at the back of the upper deck.
He then exited the bus at the first stop or maybe even before it left
Euston Station.



I kind of agree with you, who ever planted the bombs was alone during that
dreadful hour BUT I would imagine someone presented him with the primed
bombs that morning possibly in a side street in the King's Cross area.

For sure he jumped from one train to another. You could set up a guessing
game what direction did he travel first on the circle line but then again
did he actually travel the circle line? was it a simple act of jump on then
straight off. One answer we all know is he DID enter the King's Cross
Piccadilly Line platform and swiftly got to Euston and again without
question he MUST of used the Northern Line.

The thing that I'm questioning more and more is the bombing of the bus.
Usually terrorist follow a pattern but never 3 trains then change to a bus.
who ever planted the bombs had the intention of copying the Madrid blast.

Here are a couple of options what the bomber had in mind:

Option 1. He was planning a repeated task - leave the bomb on a packed
Northern Line train and swiftly abandon the train when it arrived at Euston
BUT when the train arrived passengers were told to leave the station.
Because of this situation the bomber decided to take the bomb with him and
find a new target.

Option 2. He was heading for the Victoria Line southbound where he would
plant the next bomb.

Option 3. The Piccadilly train was delayed from departing and so he had to
make a quick exit?

One thing the police will desperately want to know is where was the bomber
between the hours of 0850 (Kings Cross) and 0947 (Tavistock Square) I have
a feeling his operation of bombing the tube system was broken and that his
original plan was not to bomb a bus.


Any bomb experts out there?! Lets say he had further bombs in his bag
containing plastic explosives - first primed bomb exploded - what is the
result with regards to the other bombs?

Tadej Brezina wrote:

He could have arrived at King's Cross on the eastbound Circle Line
train, leaving the FIRST bomb on that train.
He could have placed the SECOND bomb on the westbound Circle Line train
without actually riding it, just getting on, leaving the bomb and
getting off.
Same with the THIRD bomb. He could have placed it on the Picadilly Line
train without actually riding the train. They say the bomb was on the
first car, right where the escalator from the lower level would have
brought the culprit. He placed the bomb on the train and then took the
escalator to the surface.


Your scenario may be plausible from the "time between different trains point
of view", but don't you thinj, that the the following might be a little
suspicious?
That would mean for bomb 1 and bomb 2 that he entered the train, preferably
as first person of the entering crowd, placing the bomb somewhere and
leaving the train at the very same station, which is KX, if I got your
theory right.
How long do trains stand in stations in general and in KX in special on
average. I guess somewhere ranging between 20s and one minute. Including the
expectedly large crowds on the platforms and IN the trains, that would put
some additional stress. Many people in the train, probably no seat to claim
- for placing the bomb beneath - just hopping on, trying to appear calm and
place what kind of bomb on whichever place and getting off at the same
station - probably hassling through the people that entered the train after
him - without causing attention ... well I don't know!

How big could a bomb have been? Was it more like the size of cell phone
(highly explosive stuff) or somewehere at the briefcase/rucksack size
(probably a bigger amount of less brisant explosives).

It's been officially stated that each bomb weighed less than 10 pounds
(or had less than 10 pounds of explosive), and it was NOT super high
grade explosive like Semtex. So, the entire bomb was probably the size
of a liter soda bottle or a boxed liquor bottle. He would have been
able to carry all four in a bag or backpack with no problem.

I can hardly imagine someone forgetting a bag in this short a time in the
small carriages full of people with nobody seeing it and getting
curious/suspicious or simply helpfull and trying to get the bag to the owner
back.
But it may be possible if London's tube-riders are as sleepy or less caring
as in Vienna.

The point is that the deed was done when people were getting off and
getting on the train. Everyone is focused on other things, like getting
off or getting on and finding a seat. I don't think he left a bag
behind anywhere except on the bus. I think he just left the bomb behind
- and it looked ordinary, like a box not like a bomb.


[...]
Verify that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be the work of one man before
looking for more than one person!


Do the trains of all these involved lines so exactly on time, that the one
person could have relied upon it just by gathering the timetable information
through train-use and writing down the time. Or would it be required to have
an "inside view"?

It's been 15 years since I've travelled the London underground, but if
the culprit travelled it every day, he probably knew exactly what he
needed to do. He probably even practiced it (without actually leaving
anything behind). If he was a regular commuter, he may have seen the
westbound train pull into the station minutes a thousand times just
after he got off the eastbound train. And he may have seen or heard the
Picadilly train arriving a thousand times as he was going up the escalator.

I commuted for many years, and I learned all the tricks to make certain
things went easy for me. I got on the train at a specific door because
I knew that door would be nearest the exit when it pulled into my
destination station. And in many years of commuting there were a few
times when I got onto the wrong train and got right back off again.

Ed
anthraxinvestigation.com


thanks, very curious from Vienna
Tadej
--
... aber auch bei Frauen hat das Großhirn tatsächlich eine Funktion ...
Selbst im wildestens Winterschlußverkaufrausch verstehen sie noch das Wort
"Kreditkartenlimit".
David Kastrup in d.t.r

Yes, I'm also worried about the mindset of the people investigating the
case. As I stated in another response, in the anthrax investigation
there were two instances where investigators made one false assumption
after another and missed critical findings. When investigators are
under pressure on a critical case, they often just don't have time to
step back to look at the whole picture. They work by rote.

The whole picture here seems to say they need to look at the possibility
that the crime was done by ONE person. If it WAS done by a lone
terrorist, it may be very easy to find him on surveillance tapes.

Ed
anthraxinvestigation.com


David Wilcox wrote:

Points that may be relevant. The Metropolitan line platforms at Kings Cross
are between the two tracks. All other stations that the two Circle line
trains passed through, with the exception of possibly Edgeware Road, the
platforms are outside of the tracks. A parcel placed just inside the doors
at Kings Cross could have lain undisturbed by people getting on and off. On
the Picadilly line trains there is luggage space just inside the doors and
even in the rush hour a parcel placed there might not have seemed out of
place.

There are warnings at Kings Cross about thieves operating on the station. A
really cunning bomber might have been "careless" with his belongings and
have had them stolen.

I too favour the one person responsible theory and I also remain to be
convinced that it was an Islamist extremist behind it all. Let's hope that
the police really are operating with an open mind on this problem. The
Prime Minister, judging by his comments, seems to have made up his already.
Maybe his conscience is troubling him.

Dave Wilcox.


"Ed Lake" wrote in message
...

Everything I've seen says the London blasts could have been the work of
a lone terrorist.

He could have arrived at King's Cross on the eastbound Circle Line
train, leaving the FIRST bomb on that train.

He could have placed the SECOND bomb on the westbound Circle Line train
without actually riding it, just getting on, leaving the bomb and
getting off.

Same with the THIRD bomb. He could have placed it on the Picadilly Line
train without actually riding the train. They say the bomb was on the
first car, right where the escalator from the lower level would have
brought the culprit. He placed the bomb on the train and then took the
escalator to the surface.

Once he reached the surface, he could have walked or taken a bus to
Euston Station. (He had plenty of time.) At Euston Station he boarded a
bus and left the FOURTH bomb under a seat at the back of the upper deck.
He then exited the bus at the first stop or maybe even before it left
Euston Station.

There doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that the bombs couldn't
all have been planted by a single individual. So, that would be the
best way to start the manhunt.

Only look for more than one individual IF it can be shown that it would
have been IMPOSSIBLE for the deed to have been done by one man. If it
COULD HAVE been done by one man, there would be no reason for involving
anyone else. More people just means more risk.

Furthermore, IF it was done by one man, the arrival times of the three
trains will literally tell you where the culprit was at almost every
minute he was inside King's Cross Station. You MAY even be able to say
he would have been in front of surveillance camera #11 at 8:40 a.m., in
front of surveillance camera #12 at 8:42 a.m. and in front of
surveillance camera #19 at 8:54 a.m.

Verify that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be the work of one man before
looking for more than one person!

Ed
anthraxinvestigation.com

In article , (Ed Lake)
wrote:

Paul Weaver wrote:
OK, assuming that he got on/off the train without riding, laving a
parcel there, and not raising any suspiscion and nobody noticed it
that got off at a later stop and mentioned it to the police/media...

The bombs were timed, they exploded simultaneously. That means whoever
planted the piccadilly line one left the train seconds before the bomb
went off. That's cutting it *very* close. What if the train has been a
couple of minutes later - the bomb would have gone off in the guys
hand.

The bomb on the Picadilly Line went off after it left King's Cross.
Wasn't it somewhere near Russell Square when it went off?

250 metres from King's Cross according to the BBC. The timing was close, I
agree.

If there had been any danger, he could have just inactivated the bomb.
I don't see him running around King's Cross with bombs he has no way to
inactivate.

As David Wilcox points out in this thread, there are places on the cars
for leaving things. And as I've pointed out elsewhere, what you have
to do is push your way aboard the train while it is still unloading to
make certain you get a seat, put the bomb under the seat or wherever is
best, and then leave the car with the last of the exiting passengers.

Someone else has said that during rush hour you're lucky if you can see
your own feet, much less what is under some seat.

The guy had this well planned out. It probably practiced it (without
actually leaving anything behind).

My main point is: Everyone seems to be thinking in terms of a group of
terrorists. Sorting out and investigating suspicious individuals on
surveillance tapes from DOZENS of underground stations could take
MONTHS. But, IF it was a LONE terrorist, that means there is a very
UNIQUE way to find him on the surveillance tapes. It can be done in
hours!

In the anthrax investigation back in 2001, there were two instances
where the authorities first made one false assumption, and when that
didn't prove true they made another false assumption, and when that
didn't prove true they GAVE UP. In the London attacks they're all
assuming that it was a group of terrorists. That may be a FALSE
assumption and they could be missing a very quick way to get a good
description of the guy off of surveillance tapes.

We shall no doubt hear more in the coming days and weeks.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Ed Lake wrote:
Tadej Brezina wrote:

He could have arrived at King's Cross on the eastbound Circle Line
train, leaving the FIRST bomb on that train.
He could have placed the SECOND bomb on the westbound Circle Line train
without actually riding it, just getting on, leaving the bomb and
getting off.
Same with the THIRD bomb. He could have placed it on the Picadilly Line
train without actually riding the train. They say the bomb was on the
first car, right where the escalator from the lower level would have
brought the culprit. He placed the bomb on the train and then took the
escalator to the surface.

Your scenario may be plausible from the "time between different trains point
of view", but don't you thinj, that the the following might be a little
suspicious?
That would mean for bomb 1 and bomb 2 that he entered the train, preferably
as first person of the entering crowd, placing the bomb somewhere and
leaving the train at the very same station, which is KX, if I got your
theory right.
How long do trains stand in stations in general and in KX in special on
average. I guess somewhere ranging between 20s and one minute. Including the
expectedly large crowds on the platforms and IN the trains, that would put
some additional stress. Many people in the train, probably no seat to claim
- for placing the bomb beneath - just hopping on, trying to appear calm and
place what kind of bomb on whichever place and getting off at the same
station - probably hassling through the people that entered the train after
him - without causing attention ... well I don't know!

How big could a bomb have been? Was it more like the size of cell phone
(highly explosive stuff) or somewehere at the briefcase/rucksack size
(probably a bigger amount of less brisant explosives).

It's been officially stated that each bomb weighed less than 10 pounds
(or had less than 10 pounds of explosive), and it was NOT super high
grade explosive like Semtex. So, the entire bomb was probably the size
of a liter soda bottle or a boxed liquor bottle. He would have been
able to carry all four in a bag or backpack with no problem.

The weight of the explosives being expressed in pounds is pretty much
meaningless, given that different compounds have different
characteristics. Just three pounds of semtex, however, would do far
far more damage than any of the bombs used on Thursday, so it is seems
more likely that it was a commercial explisive such as gelignite (used
in quarrying/mining). The bombs were probably somewhere between 5 and
10 pounds, meanign that a lone bomber would have to be staggering
around initially with a 20 to 40 pounds of explosives, not including
the additional weight of the devices (timer/s, deontator/s, casings,
etc.).

I can hardly imagine someone forgetting a bag in this short a time in the
small carriages full of people with nobody seeing it and getting
curious/suspicious or simply helpfull and trying to get the bag to the owner
back.
But it may be possible if London's tube-riders are as sleepy or less caring
as in Vienna.

The point is that the deed was done when people were getting off and
getting on the train. Everyone is focused on other things, like getting
off or getting on and finding a seat. I don't think he left a bag
behind anywhere except on the bus. I think he just left the bomb behind
- and it looked ordinary, like a box not like a bomb.

Yeah, right. A box is going to look suspiscious; a bag less so, but
still "dodgy."