In message , Phil Lepherd
writes
Is it just me, or has the amount of emergency services using their sirens
increased in the days since 7/7? Each and every time I set foot outside this
week, the air has been split by about three emergency vehicles sreaming
past. Hey! As I type this I can hear the shreik through the window!


Or maybe I'm only noticing the racket now.


I work near Aldgate and by 5 pm on that Thursday the sirens were
beginning to get to most of us at work. It's like trying to carry on
as usual in a war zone, and I would imagine most people in the City
had the same experience.

Now I just think we're all a bit over sensitive to sirens, but hopefully
that will fade.

I saw a lot of police cars charging along empty roads, sirens going
like mad that afternoon. Was it necessary, does it help ?
I think it's a bit soon to ask, but the use of sirens and their effect
on
the morale of the populace needs looking at IMHO.


--
Edward Cowling London UK

I saw a lot of police cars charging along empty roads, sirens going
like mad that afternoon. Was it necessary, does it help ?
I think it's a bit soon to ask, but the use of sirens and their effect
on
the morale of the populace needs looking at IMHO.


Unfortunatly, the police will be critisiced whatever they do. I'm an ex
member of the emergency services and can assure you that blue lights
and sirens are only used in genuine emergencies, although very often
these emergencies turn out to be less urgent once you arrive there. I
was a paramedic, if we got a call to, say, a collapse, we'd obviously
use lights and sirens to get there. Once in attendence at the **** head
trying to get a days sleep in a doorway somewhere, in hindsight the
quick response was completely unnecessary, but going on the information
given by the original 999 caller completely required.

So, what do the police do? Not use sirens and drive cautiously to every
call, wishing when they get there and find it is a genuine emergency
they got there quicker? Or, respond to every call urgently, realising
that a number of those calls will be completely false alarms?

What happens if they are driving to a call without sirens and someone
steps off a pavement in front of them. Will they get criticised for not
using the siren?

Personally, I used to turn the siren off if there was no traffic, and
no obvious hazards ahead. A (very) few of my colleagues used to turn
the siren on leaving the station, and off once they got to the scene.
Each to their own. The end of the day, those few were probably taking
the safest option.

Anyone who complains about police cars whizzing about have got to ask
themselves, if they were being attacked and call the police for help,
would they want the police to attend urgently or not? The police
officers wouldn't know if it was a genuine call until they arrived at
you. Is it a hoax? Mates larking about? A domesitic row? Just because
you phone up and say its genuine doesn't make it any different to any
of the other calls they've been out to that day. Some urgent, some not.
Some genuine, some not. All equally urgent to the emergency staff until
they actually arrive on scene.

Personally, I'd rather be criticised for making to much noise than
taking too long to get to a call.

"terzal" wrote in message
oups.com...

Personally, I used to turn the siren off if there was no traffic, and
no obvious hazards ahead. A (very) few of my colleagues used to turn
the siren on leaving the station, and off once they got to the scene.
Each to their own.

That's my complaint too. It's not the use of sirens, which are obviously
essential in busy areas, but what happens here in Balham is that police cars
tear along with sirens blaring at 3.00am or 4.00am on an absolutely deserted
Balham High Road! In this weather, those of us that live on the main road
and have our bedroom windows open can't help but be woken up.

I have had a letter published in the local paper on this issue, to no avail.
I reckon these sirens are just penis extensions for some kiddie-coppers.

Ian

"Ian F." wrote in message
...
"terzal" wrote in message
oups.com...

Personally, I used to turn the siren off if there was no traffic, and
no obvious hazards ahead. A (very) few of my colleagues used to turn
the siren on leaving the station, and off once they got to the scene.
Each to their own.

That's my complaint too. It's not the use of sirens, which are obviously
essential in busy areas, but what happens here in Balham is that police
cars tear along with sirens blaring at 3.00am or 4.00am on an absolutely
deserted Balham High Road! In this weather, those of us that live on the
main road and have our bedroom windows open can't help but be woken up.

Are there no rules/guidance for use of sirens on emergency vehicles at a
time of night when it would be illegal for other motorists to use their
horns? I would expect the guidance to be: turn the siren off except when you
are approaching a junction where traffic has priority over you or when
there's an obvious hazard like a bunch of cars in front of you or people who
look as if they're about to cross the road in front of you.

I've noticed that ambulances switch between a laid-back slow wail when they
are in light traffic and a much more urgent, insistent, faster whooping when
they are approaching heavier traffic. I've also seen many ambulances and
fire engines with just their blue lights on and no sirens, especially on
sparsely-populated motorways. So it looks as if they are considerate. Police
cars seem to be the worst offenders for leaving their sirens going full
time.

The converse is true: not using a siren when it's needed. One evening I was
going home from work at dusk and had green lights approaching a set of
traffic lights. Suddenly, from my right, a police car shot across from the
right about 6 feet in front of me. Luckily I'd slowed down a bit from the 60
at which I'd been approaching because I thought the lights had been at green
for a long time and might change soon. The police car was not using his
siren: my fleeting impression was of just a single flash of his blue light
as he passed my field of vision. I know that police cars are allowed to go
though red lights, but they normally sound their siren on the approach and
to take extra care if traffic that has priority over them doesn't have clear
sight of them approaching and so will have no advance warning.


I've always wondered what the law is about ordinary cars going through red
lights to let an emergency vehicle behind get through. I was once in this
situation: I was at the head of a queue of cars at traffic lights when a
fire engine came up on my offside but was blocked from going the wrong way
through the junction because some pillock had stopped on a box junction. So
I thought: act first, defend my actions afterwards - I edged forwards,
flashing my lights and hooting my horn to warn other traffic what I was
doing and pulled at right angles to the direction I'd been going in to make
room for the fire engine. I noticed one of the passengers in the fire engine
stuck his arm out of the window and gave me a "thank you" wave for applying
a bit of common sense. However I've also seen cars waiting dutifully at red
lights with emergency vehicles stuck behind them for ages, probably because
they are afraid of being penalised for going through a red light.

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:46:32 +0100, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

Are there no rules/guidance for use of sirens on emergency vehicles at a
time of night when it would be illegal for other motorists to use their
horns?

My flatmate reckons they shouldn't use them after 10pm, or something.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
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I haven't got my old manual to hand at the moment to look up the
precise wording of the instructions. The main exemptions from the Road
Traffic Act that emergency vehicles can claim are to treat red traffic
lights as give way signs, and to exceed the speed limit. Its worded
something like where to obey them would hinder the vehicle in its
duties. I don't think there is any actual mention of the use of lights
and sirens as such, apart from a secondary exemption is the ability to
use audible warnings at night. Individual services (and even
preferences from one instructor to another) will have their own
guidelines.

The bottom line is, if you are claiming any exemption (eg speeding),
then you could end up in court explaining both the reason why ("I was
attending an emergency call"), and what means you were using to warn
the public ("I had the blue lights and sirens on"). So although having
the siren turned off, as you take out a pedestrian who steps out in
front of you, wouldn't be in breach of any law as such, it probably
would count towards your dangerous driving sentence.

Consequently, any time the siren is turned off while attending an
emergency call, the driver is to some extent putting other road users
and his driving licence at risk. People will always come from nowhere.
There will always be pedestrians who step off the kerb without looking
and people who suddenly pull out of side turnings without looking.

There has to be an element of common sense and as I said I and nearly
all of my colleagues tended to turn the siren off if there was no
visable hazard. But that was the risk we took. I wouldn't criticise
anyone for taking the other option and leaving the siren on from
station to scene. You only need a kid to run out from a shop across the
road and the first question we'd be asked was whether the siren was
turned on.

I'm not at all taking issue with your post (you weren't being
confrontational at all!) but any potential hazard is a hazard whether
obvious or not. People by the side of the road might step out whether
they look like they might or not, and unless they are well away from
kerb would really need the siren to be sounded. Any junction whatever
the priority is also to some extent a hazard. There has to be some
common sense, but ultimately as I said any time the siren is turned off
there is a risk (probably to the drivers licence and career more than
to the public - I'm well aware sirens can also be disorienting to the
public at times). I am sure having the siren turned off would always
count against you in court.

As for the vehicles with the sirens off when they should more obviously
be turned on, there is a need for silent approach sometimes, but
obviously extra care must be taken. Certainly from a paramedics point
of view, with a patient on board we would try to keep the siren use to
a minimum (although taking a patient in with blue lights going is
relatively rare anyway) because of the stress to a conscious patient.

I'm not trying to excuse bad driving on the part of emergency staff,
obviously as in any job some people are more competent than others, but
I do feel that the majority (not all) of the criticism they get is
completely unjustified.

As for how you stand going through a red light to make way for a fire
engine, I dunno! I like to think that it would be taking into
account.....

It was a dark and stormy night when Martin Underwood
wrote in article 42d939eb$0$21993$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-
reader02.plus.net...
The converse is true: not using a siren when it's needed. One evening I
was going home from work at dusk and had green lights approaching a set
of traffic lights. Suddenly, from my right, a police car shot across
from the right about 6 feet in front of me. Luckily I'd slowed down a
bit from the 60 at which I'd been approaching because I thought the
lights had been at green for a long time and might change soon. The
police car was not using his siren: my fleeting impression was of just a
single flash of his blue light as he passed my field of vision. I know
that police cars are allowed to go though red lights, but they normally
sound their siren on the approach and to take extra care if traffic that
has priority over them doesn't have clear sight of them approaching and
so will have no advance warning.

Same happened to me on my way home to London near Farnham, Hants; police
car shot out across a light-controlled crossroads on the A31 at a good
60mph, while I was crossing under a green light at a similar speed, and
missed me by a hairsbreadth. It would have been a spectacular smash if
I'd been a second or two further on.

I must admit my initial response (apart from pulling over to get my
composure back) was to wonder whether, since there was no other traffic
about at all, the driver (had he survived) would have been honest and
admitted he had no siren going. (Or are these things logged like speed
on a tachograph?)

--
"All vampires suck, but not all who suck are vampires."
(--B.J.Kuehl)

:::Grebbsy :::::::lemon curry?:::

On 16 Jul 2005 03:00:58 -0700, "terzal" said:

Anyone who complains about police cars whizzing about have got to ask
themselves, if they were being attacked and call the police for help,
would they want the police to attend urgently or not?

Last time I called the police because someone was being attacked it
took them over an hour to show up. Mind you, the victim was black so
I suppose the police didn't think that was urgent.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

In article , David Cantrell
writes
On 16 Jul 2005 03:00:58 -0700, "terzal" said:

Anyone who complains about police cars whizzing about have got to ask
themselves, if they were being attacked and call the police for help,
would they want the police to attend urgently or not?

Last time I called the police because someone was being attacked it
took them over an hour to show up. Mind you, the victim was black so
I suppose the police didn't think that was urgent.


Last time I called them because someone was being attacked, they, the
police, never turned up. It took the ambulance 45 minutes to arrive,
the victim could have died choking on his own blood. A gang of youths
had been using the poor guy's head as a football and the people who
arrived on the scene just before me had chased off the gang. A prompt
response might have enabled the police to pick up the gang involved
immediately. The man had a broken jaw.

To add insult to injury, when they eventually put up yellow witness
request boards they got the wrong stretch of road and the wrong time of
day.

Just to even up the balance, this guy was white, and the gang were kids
of all colours.
--
Nicholas David Richards -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"