mark wrote:
"David Martin" wrote ...


MatSav wrote:

Incidentally, you'll NEVER get your bike UP with absailing equipment -
that's designed for going DOWN ;-)

Is that a challenge? IIRC the main feature of such a piece of equipment
is to prevent the rope from slipping past too quickly.. And such an
arrangement can easily be modified to work for going up as well as
down.. (says the bloke who has absailed using almost everything from
'classic' to the latest and greatest fancy bits..) A prusik knot is a
pain in the **** for ascending, there are many better variants out
there.

..d

"Ab" is the German word for "down", "seil" is the German word for rope. To
abseil is to descend a rope using a braking device.
The abseiling equipment that I've used (everything from the Dulfersitz to a
Gri-Gri , which only works on a single strand) prevents the abseiler from
slipping down the rope too quickly by wrapping the rope around something,
usually a locking carabiner. Since the rope has to be held in tension in
order for the abseiling device to work, it's going to be rather difficult to
move the abseiling device up the rope, although the abseiling device and the
attached climber/abseiler can be allowed to slide down the rope pretty
easily by moderating tension on the unanchored end of the rope and letting
gravity do the work. I'm not sure what you classify as abseiling equipment,
but nothing that I've used to abseil with would be especialy suited for
ascending, except perhaps short distances on low angle slabs.

Obviously it isn't ideal for ascending, but that doesn't mean it can't
be done ;-)

I could probably do SRT with a petzl stop and a figure eight (or a
couple of spare karabiners and a cows tail, or a spare sling, or...

Adaptability is the name of the game. You can spot the serious climbers
cos they have 250kg breaking strain bootlaces..


...d

David Martin wrote:


Obviously it isn't ideal for ascending, but that doesn't mean it can't
be done ;-)

I could probably do SRT with a petzl stop and a figure eight (or a
couple of spare karabiners and a cows tail, or a spare sling, or...

Adaptability is the name of the game. You can spot the serious climbers
cos they have 250kg breaking strain bootlaces..

AFAIK apart from a prussik (sp?) knot the only useful bit of kit for
climbing a rope is a Croll (I only know of Petzl ones but there may be
others) or maybe a Shunt in extremis. You can't attach a fig8 or Stop
to a loaded rope.

MartinM wrote:
David Martin wrote:


Obviously it isn't ideal for ascending, but that doesn't mean it can't
be done ;-)

I could probably do SRT with a petzl stop and a figure eight (or a
couple of spare karabiners and a cows tail, or a spare sling, or...

Adaptability is the name of the game. You can spot the serious climbers
cos they have 250kg breaking strain bootlaces..

AFAIK apart from a prussik (sp?) knot the only useful bit of kit for
climbing a rope is a Croll (I only know of Petzl ones but there may be
others) or maybe a Shunt in extremis. You can't attach a fig8 or Stop
to a loaded rope.

You can attach a figure eight but not in the way you are thinking of..
You'd use a stop only as the lower of the two ascenders assuming there
is noone below you (ie rope not in tension.). There would probably be
better alternatives to hand anyway.

By far my favourite is a 4ft sling and an HMS karabiner. Clip the sling
in to the karabiner and then wrap around the back of the karabiner and
the rope, winding upwards. Clip into the free end. Much better than a
prussikk (sp?).

...d

David Martin wrote:
MartinM wrote:
David Martin wrote:


Obviously it isn't ideal for ascending, but that doesn't mean it can't
be done ;-)

I could probably do SRT with a petzl stop and a figure eight (or a
couple of spare karabiners and a cows tail, or a spare sling, or...

Adaptability is the name of the game. You can spot the serious climbers
cos they have 250kg breaking strain bootlaces..

AFAIK apart from a prussik (sp?) knot the only useful bit of kit for
climbing a rope is a Croll (I only know of Petzl ones but there may be
others) or maybe a Shunt in extremis. You can't attach a fig8 or Stop
to a loaded rope.

You can attach a figure eight but not in the way you are thinking of..
You'd use a stop only as the lower of the two ascenders assuming there
is noone below you (ie rope not in tension.). There would probably be
better alternatives to hand anyway.

By far my favourite is a 4ft sling and an HMS karabiner. Clip the sling
in to the karabiner and then wrap around the back of the karabiner and
the rope, winding upwards. Clip into the free end. Much better than a
prussikk (sp?).

there is nifty little thing Petzl have just brought out, basically just
one of the spiky ratchet thingies from a croll that clips to a krab and
makes an instant prusic (sp?) ideally you would have two buy you could
manage with one if you moved a fig8/Stop up below it. Only a few quid
and an essential bit of emergency kit if you don't have a full SRT rig.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/cat_id/E...bloc-29507.htm

MartinM wrote:
there is nifty little thing Petzl have just brought out, basically just
one of the spiky ratchet thingies from a croll that clips to a krab and
makes an instant prusic (sp?) ideally you would have two buy you could
manage with one if you moved a fig8/Stop up below it. Only a few quid
and an essential bit of emergency kit if you don't have a full SRT rig.

Extra weight and no use for anything else.. It is perfectly possible to
use a normal climbing rack to do SRT, just takes a bit more ingenuity..
As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

It is always useful to be able to 'make do' with what kit you have.

...d

David Martin wrote:
MartinM wrote:
there is nifty little thing Petzl have just brought out, basically just
one of the spiky ratchet thingies from a croll that clips to a krab and
makes an instant prusic (sp?) ideally you would have two buy you could
manage with one if you moved a fig8/Stop up below it. Only a few quid
and an essential bit of emergency kit if you don't have a full SRT rig.

Extra weight and no use for anything else.. It is perfectly possible to
use a normal climbing rack to do SRT, just takes a bit more ingenuity..
As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

Sorry, I'm a caver not a climber, what is a climbing rack? (presumably
nothing like a descending rack)

As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

again the only thing which springs to mind is an Italian hitch (not
recommended) what other methods are there?

BTW I am all in favour of improvising because e.g. incidents on non SRT
trips are exactly where you may have to.

"MartinM" wrote
Sorry, I'm a caver not a climber, what is a climbing rack? (presumably
nothing like a descending rack)

Collection of carabiners, hexes, stoppers, camming devices, slings, etc.,
carried by a climber to set anchors and place protection while climbing.
Varies from climber to climber and from climb to climb.

As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

again the only thing which springs to mind is an Italian hitch (not
recommended) what other methods are there?

Dulfersitz: Straddle the ropes, bring the rope up and over one's shoulder
from behind, then across the front of the torso and down past the opposite
hip. Painful, not recommended, only works on low angle terrain, only done in
the direst of emergencies. I tried this once on a very short rappel, we were
descending from a long route in Yosemite Valley after bivying on the summit
of Sentinel Rock and my partner thought it would be faster than unpacking
the harnesses. Never again.

Foot brake: Rope is passed under the sole of one foot and over the instep of
the other foot, climber stands very upright and lowers himself with his
hands. I watched a free-soloist do this on the backside of one of the
Boulder Flatirons on my rope after my partner and I had descended. Neither I
or my partner had any interest in trying this novel technique ourselves.

2 carabiner brake: two carabiners laid end to end with enough overlap to
pass the ropes through. Rope is woven through the two overlapping carabiners
as it would be through a descending rack. This is best done with the funny
banana shaped locking carabiners that used to be favored by Czech and other
east European climbers. In fact, I first saw this done by a Czech climber
who proudly told me that this was "East European Technique".

4 carabiner brake: 2 carabiners are stacked on top of one another w/ gates
opposed and reversed. A bight of rope is fed through these carabiners, then
2 more are clipped across the first two to form a brake bar, as in a
descending rack. With enough carabiners, one can build as long a descending
rack as one wishes. Works best w/ oval carabiners. Very effective, very
dependable, every climber should know this technique.
--
mark

BTW I am all in favour of improvising because e.g. incidents on non SRT
trips are exactly where you may have to.

In message .com
"MartinM" wrote:



David Martin wrote:

As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

again the only thing which springs to mind is an Italian hitch (not
recommended) what other methods are there?

I have once abseiled on an Italian hitch, just the once about 15-20 feet to
try it out. I can say it is not something I would like to do again.

If you are silly enough to try it, get someone on the ground to hold the
rope just in case.

Martin.

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