MartinM wrote:
David Martin wrote:


Obviously it isn't ideal for ascending, but that doesn't mean it can't
be done ;-)

I could probably do SRT with a petzl stop and a figure eight (or a
couple of spare karabiners and a cows tail, or a spare sling, or...

Adaptability is the name of the game. You can spot the serious climbers
cos they have 250kg breaking strain bootlaces..

AFAIK apart from a prussik (sp?) knot the only useful bit of kit for
climbing a rope is a Croll (I only know of Petzl ones but there may be
others) or maybe a Shunt in extremis. You can't attach a fig8 or Stop
to a loaded rope.

You can attach a figure eight but not in the way you are thinking of..
You'd use a stop only as the lower of the two ascenders assuming there
is noone below you (ie rope not in tension.). There would probably be
better alternatives to hand anyway.

By far my favourite is a 4ft sling and an HMS karabiner. Clip the sling
in to the karabiner and then wrap around the back of the karabiner and
the rope, winding upwards. Clip into the free end. Much better than a
prussikk (sp?).

...d

David Martin wrote:
MartinM wrote:
David Martin wrote:


Obviously it isn't ideal for ascending, but that doesn't mean it can't
be done ;-)

I could probably do SRT with a petzl stop and a figure eight (or a
couple of spare karabiners and a cows tail, or a spare sling, or...

Adaptability is the name of the game. You can spot the serious climbers
cos they have 250kg breaking strain bootlaces..

AFAIK apart from a prussik (sp?) knot the only useful bit of kit for
climbing a rope is a Croll (I only know of Petzl ones but there may be
others) or maybe a Shunt in extremis. You can't attach a fig8 or Stop
to a loaded rope.

You can attach a figure eight but not in the way you are thinking of..
You'd use a stop only as the lower of the two ascenders assuming there
is noone below you (ie rope not in tension.). There would probably be
better alternatives to hand anyway.

By far my favourite is a 4ft sling and an HMS karabiner. Clip the sling
in to the karabiner and then wrap around the back of the karabiner and
the rope, winding upwards. Clip into the free end. Much better than a
prussikk (sp?).

there is nifty little thing Petzl have just brought out, basically just
one of the spiky ratchet thingies from a croll that clips to a krab and
makes an instant prusic (sp?) ideally you would have two buy you could
manage with one if you moved a fig8/Stop up below it. Only a few quid
and an essential bit of emergency kit if you don't have a full SRT rig.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/cat_id/E...bloc-29507.htm

MartinM wrote:
there is nifty little thing Petzl have just brought out, basically just
one of the spiky ratchet thingies from a croll that clips to a krab and
makes an instant prusic (sp?) ideally you would have two buy you could
manage with one if you moved a fig8/Stop up below it. Only a few quid
and an essential bit of emergency kit if you don't have a full SRT rig.

Extra weight and no use for anything else.. It is perfectly possible to
use a normal climbing rack to do SRT, just takes a bit more ingenuity..
As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

It is always useful to be able to 'make do' with what kit you have.

...d

David Martin wrote:
MartinM wrote:
there is nifty little thing Petzl have just brought out, basically just
one of the spiky ratchet thingies from a croll that clips to a krab and
makes an instant prusic (sp?) ideally you would have two buy you could
manage with one if you moved a fig8/Stop up below it. Only a few quid
and an essential bit of emergency kit if you don't have a full SRT rig.

Extra weight and no use for anything else.. It is perfectly possible to
use a normal climbing rack to do SRT, just takes a bit more ingenuity..
As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

Sorry, I'm a caver not a climber, what is a climbing rack? (presumably
nothing like a descending rack)

As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

again the only thing which springs to mind is an Italian hitch (not
recommended) what other methods are there?

BTW I am all in favour of improvising because e.g. incidents on non SRT
trips are exactly where you may have to.

"MartinM" wrote
Sorry, I'm a caver not a climber, what is a climbing rack? (presumably
nothing like a descending rack)

Collection of carabiners, hexes, stoppers, camming devices, slings, etc.,
carried by a climber to set anchors and place protection while climbing.
Varies from climber to climber and from climb to climb.

As it is perfectly possible to abseil without a specific abseil
device.

again the only thing which springs to mind is an Italian hitch (not
recommended) what other methods are there?

Dulfersitz: Straddle the ropes, bring the rope up and over one's shoulder
from behind, then across the front of the torso and down past the opposite
hip. Painful, not recommended, only works on low angle terrain, only done in
the direst of emergencies. I tried this once on a very short rappel, we were
descending from a long route in Yosemite Valley after bivying on the summit
of Sentinel Rock and my partner thought it would be faster than unpacking
the harnesses. Never again.

Foot brake: Rope is passed under the sole of one foot and over the instep of
the other foot, climber stands very upright and lowers himself with his
hands. I watched a free-soloist do this on the backside of one of the
Boulder Flatirons on my rope after my partner and I had descended. Neither I
or my partner had any interest in trying this novel technique ourselves.

2 carabiner brake: two carabiners laid end to end with enough overlap to
pass the ropes through. Rope is woven through the two overlapping carabiners
as it would be through a descending rack. This is best done with the funny
banana shaped locking carabiners that used to be favored by Czech and other
east European climbers. In fact, I first saw this done by a Czech climber
who proudly told me that this was "East European Technique".

4 carabiner brake: 2 carabiners are stacked on top of one another w/ gates
opposed and reversed. A bight of rope is fed through these carabiners, then
2 more are clipped across the first two to form a brake bar, as in a
descending rack. With enough carabiners, one can build as long a descending
rack as one wishes. Works best w/ oval carabiners. Very effective, very
dependable, every climber should know this technique.
--
mark

BTW I am all in favour of improvising because e.g. incidents on non SRT
trips are exactly where you may have to.

mark wrote:
other methods are there?


Dulfersitz: Straddle the ropes, bring the rope up and over one's shoulder
from behind, then across the front of the torso and down past the opposite
hip. Painful, not recommended, only works on low angle terrain, only done in
the direst of emergencies.

What do you mean? When I were a lad that was _the_ way you abseiled!
Been down all sorts of terrain in the Lakes, Scotland, Wales and Alps
that way. Bowline and two half hitches round the waist to tie on too.
None of these fancy harnesses and stuff

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

"Tony Raven" wrote in message
...

Dulfersitz:

What do you mean? When I were a lad that was _the_ way you abseiled!
Been down all sorts of terrain in the Lakes, Scotland, Wales and Alps
that way. Bowline and two half hitches round the waist to tie on too.
None of these fancy harnesses and stuff

One can hardly claim a figure of 8 decender is 'hi tech' !!

mark wrote:

2 carabiner brake: two carabiners laid end to end with enough overlap to
pass the ropes through. Rope is woven through the two overlapping carabiners
as it would be through a descending rack. This is best done with the funny
banana shaped locking carabiners that used to be favored by Czech and other
east European climbers. In fact, I first saw this done by a Czech climber
who proudly told me that this was "East European Technique".

Sounds a bit like an alpine clutch.. I have abseiled on a Munther
hitch before which is a variation. Alpine clutch: two stacked/opposed
carabiners clipped in to harness. Rope goes throug both then wraps
round and goes through one.

Munther hitch is nearly a clove hitch.

4 carabiner brake: 2 carabiners are stacked on top of one another w/ gates
opposed and reversed. A bight of rope is fed through these carabiners, then
2 more are clipped across the first two to form a brake bar, as in a
descending rack. With enough carabiners, one can build as long a descending
rack as one wishes. Works best w/ oval carabiners. Very effective, very
dependable, every climber should know this technique.


--
mark

BTW I am all in favour of improvising because e.g. incidents on non SRT
trips are exactly where you may have to.


Indeed..

...d

mark wrote:
"MartinM" wrote

Dulfersitz: Straddle the ropes, bring the rope up and over one's shoulder
from behind, then across the front of the torso and down past the opposite
hip. Painful, not recommended, only works on low angle terrain, only done in
the direst of emergencies. I tried this once on a very short rappel, we were
descending from a long route in Yosemite Valley after bivying on the summit
of Sentinel Rock and my partner thought it would be faster than unpacking
the harnesses. Never again.

What is the technique where you stand with arms outstretched, with the
rope wrapped once (twice?) round each arm? I've seen it done but I'm
not a climber :-)

R.