In uk.railway wrote:
[...] However, if a suspect
had a way of triggering any sort of device either remotely or strapped
to the body then there is only one way to prevent loss of life
the officers or other people, is a number of head shots to disrupt the
central nervous system and prevent the trigger being activated.

Would this work if the trigger was a switch that had to be kept
depressed (ie push to break rather than push to make) if it was not to
set the bomb off? If I were a Terrorist Mastermind I'd make sure that
I used such triggers for my suicide bombers as once they'd taken the
device in a fit of fervour, they'd have difficulty not setting it off
somewhere (not impossible, but difficult).

Jim'll

David Hansen wrote:
On 23 Jul 2005 01:16:05 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

There are no
niceties, this isn't a game, many people died two weeks ago because men
as brave as those at Stockwell yesterday were not in the right place at
the right time.

Discussion of the bravery, or otherwise, of those involved makes no
difference to the questions that are being asked.

So far I have an open mind, but as time goes on it looks more and
more like an operation which went horribly wrong. BTW I hope that is
not the case.

I will be interested to see what the brave new "independent"
complaints bunch make of this and whether they are any better than
their predecessors.

As we now know the police are saying the man shot was not connected
with the enquiry but was a Brazilian who had been working in the UK for
three years as an electrician. There seems to be a connection with an
address used by one of the suspects, and there is the question as to
why he ran into the station after officers instructed him to stop. He
was apparantly a good English speaker. In view of the background to
the incident and the attendant circumstances the officers at the scene
who trapped and shot him would have had very little choice of action.
All aspects will be examined, but it will be the operational
circumstances and decisions made that put those officers in the
position they were in that will be most closely examined. Even Liberty
are expressing sympathy for the police in this case. This operation has
gone horribly wrong and cost a life. If this man had been wired and the
officers a fraction of a second late the criticism would have been why
the police had not prevented many more deaths.
An awful tragedy, but if I was still operational and in the same
situation, believeing that in a fraction of a second I and many others
could be dead, then I would be firing those five rounds.I would also
add that on two occasions I almost did open fire on innocent people
(well in one case not quite so innocent)in both cases the trigger was
already being squeezed. Had I opened fire, I know that I had followed
all possible avenues of alternative actions, and the actions of the
people I was aiming at had given me justification for opening fire. If
in that fraction of a second the situation for me hadn't changed, a
petty burglar and six 17 year old Venture Scouts would most likely be
dead.

In message .com, at
16:18:32 on Sat, 23 Jul 2005, remarked:

As we now know the police are saying the man shot was not connected
with the enquiry but was a Brazilian who had been working in the UK for
three years as an electrician. There seems to be a connection with an
address used by one of the suspects,

Perhaps he shared the flat with a suspect, perhaps he was doing some
work there.

If this man had been wired

I'm surprised no-one has made the connection between him being an
electrician, and possibly having some wires in his pocket. (Bystanders
reported wires, didn't they).

--
Roland Perry

On 23 Jul 2005 16:18:32 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

There seems to be a connection with an
address used by one of the suspects,

The police description of this address, as reported in the mass
media, has varied between a house to a block of flats. It would be
good if the police had put something on their web site about this,
but http://www.met.police.uk/ remains silent. I think the
distinction between a house and block of flats has a bearing on the
acceptability, or otherwise, of police activities.

and there is the question as to
why he ran into the station after officers instructed him to stop.

Assuming that they did so, there could be any number of reasons.
However, being chased and shouted at by several burly men, perhaps
waving guns around and perhaps claiming to be police officers, is
not the way to encourage people to stop and find out what is going
on. Remember that apparently these gunmen were not even wearing any
sort of police uniform.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:59:00 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

However, being chased and shouted at by several burly men, perhaps
waving guns around and perhaps claiming to be police officers, is
not the way to encourage people to stop and find out what is going
on. Remember that apparently these gunmen were not even wearing any
sort of police uniform.

If in doubt, when you get to the tube station, seek help from the
uniforms there.

Don't jump over the barriers and leg it straight onto a train.

--
James Farrar

September's coming soon

On Sunday 24 July 2005 09:59 David Hansen wrote:

On 23 Jul 2005 16:18:32 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-
8-------------
and there is the question as to
why he ran into the station after officers instructed him to stop.

Assuming that they did so, there could be any number of reasons.
However, being chased and shouted at by several burly men, perhaps
waving guns around and perhaps claiming to be police officers, is
not the way to encourage people to stop and find out what is going
on. Remember that apparently these gunmen were not even wearing any
sort of police uniform.



I think there are two instinctive reactions an ordinary person might make to
that kind of shock:- run or freeze. In either case I don't think much
thought would be applied for a few seconds. If a clearly visable policeman
in uniform shouted to me in a commanding way then I'd probably be tipped
towards the freeze mode. But if I hadn't seen the uniforms I think I'd run
into the nearest crowd and then freeze.

Edgar

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:19:29 +0100, James Farrar
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:59:00 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

However, being chased and shouted at by several burly men, perhaps
waving guns around and perhaps claiming to be police officers, is
not the way to encourage people to stop and find out what is going
on. Remember that apparently these gunmen were not even wearing any
sort of police uniform.

If in doubt, when you get to the tube station, seek help from the
uniforms there.

So you are being chased by a gang of armed men and you think that a
ticket collector will be able to assist your defence ? Is he supposed
to threaten them with his nippers ?

Don't jump over the barriers and leg it straight onto a train.

"Fight or flight".

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:19:29 +0100, James Farrar
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:59:00 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

However, being chased and shouted at by several burly men, perhaps
waving guns around and perhaps claiming to be police officers, is
not the way to encourage people to stop and find out what is going
on. Remember that apparently these gunmen were not even wearing
any sort of police uniform.

If in doubt, when you get to the tube station, seek help from the
uniforms there.

So you are being chased by a gang of armed men and you think that a
ticket collector will be able to assist your defence ? Is he
supposed to threaten them with his nippers ?

News reports said that there were uniformed *police* at the station.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:19:29 +0100, James Farrar
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:59:00 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

However, being chased and shouted at by several burly men, perhaps
waving guns around and perhaps claiming to be police officers, is
not the way to encourage people to stop and find out what is going
on. Remember that apparently these gunmen were not even wearing any
sort of police uniform.

If in doubt, when you get to the tube station, seek help from the
uniforms there.

Don't jump over the barriers and leg it straight onto a train.

Summary execution for fare dodgers might cut it down somewhat. A
little extreme, though.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

Richard J. wrote:

News reports said that there were uniformed *police* at the station.

If so, they don't seem to have been close enough to him to have stopped
him. Or maybe, if he was in a blind panic, their presence didn't
register with him.

--
John Ray, London UK.