"Rupert Candy" wrote in message
ups.com...

Roland Perry wrote:

I see that this is creaking into existence once more (it's only been
postponed three times already). Will trains from the GN lines continue
to terminate at Kings Cross, until the Thameslink works are complete, or
will some of them start going through?

The map on the National Express Group website shows the GN and existing
Thameslink routes as continuing to be self-contained, albeit coming
tantalisingly close at KX and Moorgate:

Until new stock is ordered they are unlikely to start running through. The
Class 365s, currently used by WAGN, do not have end-doors for use in
emergencies (like the 319s do), which is a requirement for the tunnel
sections. Thameslink have been making noises about replacement stock for the
franchise which would, presumably, occur when the GN lines are absorbed.

In message , at 14:05:53 on
Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Jack Taylor remarked:
I see that this is creaking into existence once more (it's only been
postponed three times already). Will trains from the GN lines continue
to terminate at Kings Cross, until the Thameslink works are complete, or
will some of them start going through?

The map on the National Express Group website shows the GN and existing
Thameslink routes as continuing to be self-contained, albeit coming
tantalisingly close at KX and Moorgate:

Until new stock is ordered they are unlikely to start running through. The
Class 365s, currently used by WAGN, do not have end-doors for use in
emergencies (like the 319s do), which is a requirement for the tunnel
sections. Thameslink have been making noises about replacement stock for the
franchise which would, presumably, occur when the GN lines are absorbed.

But WAGN have many 317s as well. They could run the stoppers, which tend
to be 317s [during the week, at least; after all, the people who get the
stoppers are second class citizens and don't deserve the newer stock]
through, and have the fasts shuttling back at KX.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk...

But WAGN have many 317s as well. They could run the stoppers, which tend
to be 317s [during the week, at least; after all, the people who get the
stoppers are second class citizens and don't deserve the newer stock]
through, and have the fasts shuttling back at KX.

Unfortunately the 317s are not dual-voltage so, although they are permitted
through the tunnels, they wouldn't get much further than Farringdon (at
present the limit of 25kV ac catenary, although City Thameslink is proposed
to be the changeover point under TL2000).

In article , Jack Taylor
writes
Until new stock is ordered they are unlikely to start running through. The
Class 365s, currently used by WAGN, do not have end-doors for use in
emergencies (like the 319s do), which is a requirement for the tunnel
sections.

The tunnels are all double-track, aren't they? Apart from the new
(short) links.

365s already run through single-track tunnels between Ally Pally and
Potters Bar.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...

The tunnels are all double-track, aren't they? Apart from the new
(short) links.

365s already run through single-track tunnels between Ally Pally and
Potters Bar.

Agreed. However, when the 319s were ordered they were originally designed
without the end doors. The design was required to be modified to allow for
passengers to be detrained in emergency, using front and rear end doors, in
the tunnels under St P/KX. Presumably any following stock will be subject to
the same requirement. I suspect that, as previous posters have suggested,
this may be to do with clearances in the tunnels. I'll have to trawl through
some 1988/1989 "Modern Railways" when I get the chance!

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:47:53 GMT, "Jack Taylor"
wrote:


"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...

The tunnels are all double-track, aren't they? Apart from the new
(short) links.

365s already run through single-track tunnels between Ally Pally and
Potters Bar.

Agreed. However, when the 319s were ordered they were originally designed
without the end doors. The design was required to be modified to allow for
passengers to be detrained in emergency, using front and rear end doors, in
the tunnels under St P/KX. Presumably any following stock will be subject to
the same requirement. I suspect that, as previous posters have suggested,
this may be to do with clearances in the tunnels. I'll have to trawl through
some 1988/1989 "Modern Railways" when I get the chance!


Yes 365s do run through single bore tunnels on the East Coast section,
however in an emergency, it is possible to exit via side doors within
the tunnel. Shakespeare Cliff Tunnel in Kent is single bore and can
only have trains with ends doors through it. In this case, it is
beause the tunnel is very tight to gauge and there is no way anyone
could exit through side doors.

Presumably such tight to gauge tunnels exist on the section of line
between Kentish Town and Farringdon. The section beyond here to
Blackfriars, doesn't since Class 465s, the fore runners too 365s, run
to Smithfield Sidings/City Thameslink.



Life without sex just isn't life.
Make love not war!

In article , Christine
writes
Presumably such tight to gauge tunnels exist on the section of line
between Kentish Town and Farringdon.

It's a double-track tunnel.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article , Christine
writes
Presumably such tight to gauge tunnels exist on the section of line
between Kentish Town and Farringdon.

It's a double-track tunnel.

I wonder if the decision is based upon the premise that if two trains,
travelling in opposite directions, became stuck in the tunnels it would be
impossible to detrain passengers using the side doors, either to the cess or
the six foot. Hence the requirement for end doors.

Presumably such tight to gauge tunnels exist on the section of line
between Kentish Town and Farringdon.

It's a double-track tunnel.

I wonder if the decision is based upon the premise that if two trains,
travelling in opposite directions, became stuck in the tunnels it would be
impossible to detrain passengers using the side doors, either to the cess
or
the six foot. Hence the requirement for end doors.

I was wondering if perhaps the widened lines from Moorgate to King's Cross
Thameslink were still considered as part of the London Underground system at
the time and so found themselves having to meet extra requirements because
of that, regardless of the actual practicalities.

Do we actually know if the same restriction applies to this day? The 319s
have been around quite a while after all.