On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

--
James Farrar

September's coming soon

In article ,
(James Farrar) wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it
looks to me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to
Queensbury, take the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to
South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

Yes, one of the strong reasons to prefer the bus for the RAH is that
it's very poorly located for the underground.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Paul Terry typed


In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Others have made the suggestion of mangling the options to the point
where it is telling you what you already know.

I don't think that's entirely fair, at least without knowing precisely
how Helen primed the search engine.

'HA8 5LW' to 'Royal Albert Hall' at approx 17.30.

For instance, to arrive at the Albert Hall by 19:00 on a Saturday, the
Journey Planner suggests that the quickest route is the one via Green
Park that she rejected:

Leave at 17.21 and arrive at 18.49, with a journey time of 1'28".

Helen's preferred route, using only buses is actually longer - leave at
17.09 and arrive at 18.44, with a journey time of 1'35"

Yebbut we left at 17.55 and arrived around 18.50....

I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing knowledge of
the transport network that the average person would not have at all.

I don't necessarily think so. Helen knew the route she wanted, but it is
actually a little longer.

Actually, it *was* shorter. Off-Peak bus journeys are faster, Tube
journeys often take longer and every change induces further delays.

Why send people round the houses by tube for a trip that can work well
using two buses?

Because it is potentially quicker using the tube.

Not in reality IME...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

James Farrar typed


On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

Green Park is to be eschewed mightily if you don't walk well...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:10:29 +0100, Helen Deborah Vecht
wrote:

James Farrar typed


On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

Green Park is to be eschewed mightily if you don't walk well...

I eschew it mightily, and I *do* walk well. And quickly.

--
James Farrar

September's coming soon

James Farrar typed


On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:10:29 +0100, Helen Deborah Vecht
wrote:

James Farrar typed


On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it
looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to
Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

Green Park is to be eschewed mightily if you don't walk well...

I eschew it mightily, and I *do* walk well. And quickly.

I did until a few years ago :-( I could even outwalk my then boyfriend -
6'4" of erstwhile mountaineer...

Not that I liked walking in long tunnels either...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

Paul Terry typed

Helen's preferred route, using only buses is actually longer - leave at
17.09 and arrive at 18.44, with a journey time of 1'35"

Yebbut we left at 17.55 and arrived around 18.50....

But that was only because, as you indicated, the 302 was not running to
schedule - they were only 5 minutes apart instead of the time-tabled 12
minutes.

The scheduled off-peak journey time for the two buses is 46 minutes. You
waited for about 4 minutes for the first bus and about 8 for the second,
and it presumably took 5 minutes to walk to the bus stop. That totals
over an hour ... so if you did it in 55 minutes, the buses surely
couldn't have been running to schedule?

The journey planner allows ample time for walking and changing, and
assumes worst-case scenarios for waiting. Do you not think that is
right? After all, if it had told you that the total time was 55 minutes,
and you then missed the start of the prom because it took 1'35" you
would surely be somewhat upset?

--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry typed


In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

Paul Terry typed

Helen's preferred route, using only buses is actually longer - leave at
17.09 and arrive at 18.44, with a journey time of 1'35"

Yebbut we left at 17.55 and arrived around 18.50....

But that was only because, as you indicated, the 302 was not running to
schedule - they were only 5 minutes apart instead of the time-tabled 12
minutes.

We actually caught up with the 302 that we'd missed.
Every 8-12 minutes could be more frequent than every 12 minutes.

The scheduled off-peak journey time for the two buses is 46 minutes. You
waited for about 4 minutes for the first bus and about 8 for the second,
and it presumably took 5 minutes to walk to the bus stop. That totals
over an hour ... so if you did it in 55 minutes, the buses surely
couldn't have been running to schedule?

Probably not. Off-peak buses often run rather faster than scheduled.

The journey planner allows ample time for walking and changing, and
assumes worst-case scenarios for waiting. Do you not think that is
right?

Yes, but my experience of using the Tube to Victoria suggests it's
rather 'optimistic'...

After all, if it had told you that the total time was 55 minutes,
and you then missed the start of the prom because it took 1'35" you
would surely be somewhat upset?

Agreed; in reality, we were meeting a friend at the Albert Memorial at
7pm, which built in some leeway. I thought we should leave home at about
6.45. The bus stop is about 100 yards away so it's usually less than 5
minutes' walk. Since I'd made the trip before (I think, possibly before
Ken increased London Bus frequency ;-) ), I thought an hour was a
realistic estimate.

My overall impression is that JP underestimates Tube journeys and
overestimates bus journeys.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

We actually caught up with the 302 that we'd missed.
Every 8-12 minutes could be more frequent than every 12 minutes.

But only if the buses are not running to schedule, since the exact
timetable at http://www.londonbusroutes.net/routes.htm indicates that at
the time of day concerned, buses leave Mill Hill at 12-minute intervals.

Off-peak buses often run rather faster than scheduled.

But there lies the rub - even if they leave on time, people later on the
route cannot rely on catching the bus they hope for if they run ahead of
schedule, whether such folk have used the journey planner or looked-up
the timetable. For instance, if each successive bus makes up 10 minutes
on the journey, the frequency at a stop near the end of the route could
end up with a 20-minute service interval instead of a 12-minute one.

My overall impression is that JP underestimates Tube journeys and
overestimates bus journeys.

It uses published timetables and I don't think it gets those times
wrong. But I think it creates more of a safety margin for buses - which
is perhaps understandable, given the state of London's roads.

Having said all that, I think it is inevitable that local knowledge and
personal circumstance can often beat the journey planner on bus
journeys.

For instance, from almost outside my house we have buses every 8 minutes
to Hammersmith tube station - but they start some miles away and are
therefore subject to delay. Only 3 minutes' walk away we have the
terminus of the number 209, from whence buses depart every 3-4 minutes
for the same destination - and, being the terminus, they mostly leave on
time. But which do you choose? I don't know - in whichever direction I
go I generally miss one or the other! Added to that is the fact that the
3-minute walk includes a steep climb over a railway bridge, which won't
suit everyone! I don't really see how the journey planner can cope with
quite this level of detail - it can only really be a rough guide.

--
Paul Terry

I t was programmed by Moe Larry and Curly