"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:24:23 GMT, "Gareth Packer"
wrote:

On the second subject though, the Piccadilly line is getting new
2009-Stock
tube trains in (funnily enough) 2009, which will be based on the 92-Stock
of
the Central Line, and the 95/96 Stock of the Northern and Jubilee Lines,
so
I wouldnt have thought that much more work by way of refurbishments will
be
undertaken on the 72-Stock Trains... could be wrong, since they are also
due
on the Victoria Lines around the same time, the only line with outdated
trains I believe will be the Bakerloo line, which is not due new stock
until
2019...

I think you know more than we at LU or even Tube Lines do. The train
design is not finalised and new trains are not required until 2012 at
the earliest with upgrade completion due in 2015 if memory serves. It
would be foolish to purchase a design of train that will be 15 years old
for the Piccadilly Line upgrade. And performance of the current Northern
Line trains is dire so it would be doubly stupid - Tube Lines will want
something that it is very reliable so that their risk under PPP is
minimised.

I'm sure Alstom would be delighted to know they have already won a yet
to be tendered contract as would the EU as this would be a breach of
procurement law. Not sure how Bombardier would feel about the IPR of
the Central Line trains being "stolen" to inform the design of the
Piccadilly Line trains.

Oh and Piccadilly Line stock is 1973 stock and it has just had a whole
package of improvements made to it to improve reliability and all of the
seat covers are being replaced by Tube Lines. As the Picc is generally
very reliable on the Tube Lines managed sections it is pretty clear that
spending money to deal with the worst aspects of unreliability has been
worth it.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!



I have replied with a couple of pictures before i read this, so it blurbs on
about the trains, whether they will or wont exist. I am interested to know
how much is true, however, so here is what I read. Would be interested in
any comments?

***


LONDON UNDERGROUND MAJOR REGENERATION SCHEME, UNITED KINGDOM
London has one of the largest metro systems in the world, carrying almost
one billion passengers a year. Although much of the 'Tube' was built by
private enterprise in the late 19th and early 20th Century, for the last
half-century it has been in public ownership, and governments of all
complexions have been guilty of starving London Underground (LUL) of
funding.

When the Labour Government came to power in 1997, it chose a Public Private
Partnership (PPP), under which private companies would help to finance
regeneration in return for lengthy maintenance/management contracts and
guaranteed returns. The once autonomous London Underground is now split into
four organisations - two infrastructure companies (Infracos) and Transport
for London. The Infracos are responsible for the maintenance and management
of infrastructure (track, tunnels, stations and structures) and trains.

TUBE INFRASTRUCTURE
Around £16 billion investment has been promised by the Government and the
two Infraco consortia over the next 30 years: £4 billion from the private
sector, £5 billion from farebox and retail revenues and £7 billion from the
taxpayer. Early priorities are to improve reliability and cut delays. One
consortium, Tube Lines, is putting all its contracts out to open tender, for
which the three shareholders will be able to bid against other companies.

Improvements to stations include replacement or refurbished lifts and
escalators, regular 'deep cleans' and a complete rebuild of Wembley Park
station to serve the new national sports stadium.

The other consortium, Metronet, is carrying out much of the work itself and
is funded in a very different way, with investment from the five partners,
European and other banks, a bond issue, government grants and farebox
revenue.

Included in this investment are new signalling systems for the Victoria and
sub-surface lines, seven extra trains and improvements in service levels and
journey times on Victoria Line. Track, points and crossings will be renewed,
along with a comprehensive upgrade of all civil assets in the first 15
years, including 4,800 bridges, 1,600 structures and buildings, 130km of
tunnels, 155km of embankments, 225km track drainage and 150 stations.

LONDON UNDERGROUND ROLLING STOCK
One of Tube Lines' earliest decisions was a £160 million order for signal
upgrades to increase capacity and extra Jubilee Line cars to expand the
fleet from the current 59 six-car trains to 63 seven-car sets. The vehicles
will be similar to those already in service on the Jubilee Line, built by
Alstom in 1997-99. However, closure of the manufacturing plant at Washwood
Heath in Birmingham means they will have to be built outside the UK.

The major part of the £3.4 billion contract awarded to Bombardier in April
2003 covers the supply of 1,738 Metro cars for the sub-surface and Victoria
lines between 2008-15, all of which will be built at Derby.

In total, 47 eight-car Movia 248 trains (part of the Bombardier Movia Metro
family) will be built for the deep-tube Victoria Line with two
pre-production prototypes arriving in 2006. Once the design is accepted, one
train will roll off the assembly line every 15 days until August 2012. The
Bakerloo Line will have to wait until 2019 for new trains.

For the larger loading gauge Sub-Surface Lines (SSL), 190 Movia 237 trains
will replace older stock on the Metropolitan, District, Circle and
Hammersmith & City lines. Two prototypes on the 'Met' will have to run
40,000km - both empty and in traffic - to ensure they are fit for purpose.
Bombardier's innovative bolted assembly process will be used to ensure rapid
construction.

For the first time, all sub-surface trains will be to the same design apart
from train length to bring economies of scale on spares and maintenance, and
will be the first on LUL to feature inter-connecting full-width gangways,
creating more space and increased security for passengers.

Improved acceleration and braking will shorten journey times and allow a
planned increase in frequency on the Victoria Line from 28 trains per hour
to 33. In the meantime, 75 six-car District Line trains, the last of
existing stock to be replaced, are being refurbished.

LUL SIGNALLING AND COMMUNICATIONS
Much of LUL's signalling is old and unreliable and the Infracos have pledged
to upgrade all equipment across the system.

Westinghouse has been named as Metronet's sub-contractor for the signalling
side of the contracts, worth around £850 million. It will install new train
control systems on Metronet lines to improve safety and reduce headways,
although the new system will not be 'moving block'. Around 75% of LUL
control equipment is Westinghouse and the company has been a supplier to the
Underground for over 50 years. For this reason it was the preferred choice
for Metronet and Bombardier.

PPP envisages a 15% increase in capacity over the next 30 years, but this
looks likely to be inadequate for the growth anticipated.

THE FUTURE
By 2010, Tube Lines should have upgraded all 24 stations on the Jubilee
Line, replaced over 16km of track and repaired 5km of drainage.

By the same date the Northern Line should have had 40 stations upgraded,
delays cut, 24km of new track and over 6km of drainage replaced. A year
later a new signalling system should improve journey times by 18%, with
real-time train running information on stations and trains.

Further into the future, new signalling is planned system for the Piccadilly
Line to improve journey times by a fifth, with 93 new trains.



***



Thanks

Gareth

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:35:51 GMT, "Gareth Packer"
wrote:

[snip]
I have replied with a couple of pictures before i read this, so it blurbs on
about the trains, whether they will or wont exist. I am interested to know
how much is true, however, so here is what I read. Would be interested in
any comments?

***


LONDON UNDERGROUND MAJOR REGENERATION SCHEME, UNITED KINGDOM
London has one of the largest metro systems in the world, carrying almost
one billion passengers a year. Although much of the 'Tube' was built by
private enterprise in the late 19th and early 20th Century, for the last
half-century it has been in public ownership, and governments of all
complexions have been guilty of starving London Underground (LUL) of
funding.

I'd say that was pretty factual.

When the Labour Government came to power in 1997, it chose a Public Private
Partnership (PPP), under which private companies would help to finance
regeneration in return for lengthy maintenance/management contracts and
guaranteed returns. The once autonomous London Underground is now split into
four organisations - two infrastructure companies (Infracos) and Transport
for London. The Infracos are responsible for the maintenance and management
of infrastructure (track, tunnels, stations and structures) and trains.

It is actually 3 infrastructure companies and LUL. TfL own LUL via
Transport Trading. The article is a little loose with its terminology.
LUL manages the trains in terms of how they run and work during the day.
Infracos maintain and upgrade them and ensure they are safe to use on
the railway.

TUBE INFRASTRUCTURE
Around £16 billion investment has been promised by the Government and the
two Infraco consortia over the next 30 years: £4 billion from the private
sector, £5 billion from farebox and retail revenues and £7 billion from the
taxpayer. Early priorities are to improve reliability and cut delays. One
consortium, Tube Lines, is putting all its contracts out to open tender, for
which the three shareholders will be able to bid against other companies.

Not sure I agree with the numbers. Ultimately all the money comes from
the taxpayer as the borrowing and risk for the Infracos is within the
bid infrastructure service charge. It is true that Tube Lines' approach
is to competitively tender as there are no suppliers in the consortium
structure.

Improvements to stations include replacement or refurbished lifts and
escalators, regular 'deep cleans' and a complete rebuild of Wembley Park
station to serve the new national sports stadium.

LUL is paying for the expansion of Wembley Park although a part of the
scope was included within the PPP Contract in so far as it applied to
the old size of the station. The lift and escalator programme has been
rescheduled although reliability work on the worst performing lifts has
been brought forward in Tube Lines land.

The other consortium, Metronet, is carrying out much of the work itself and
is funded in a very different way, with investment from the five partners,
European and other banks, a bond issue, government grants and farebox
revenue.

Metronet is a supply chain organisation and its constituent parts are
big businesses who build or maintain railway assets. They are
restructuring themselves as performance to date has been dire -
especially on project works. It remains to be seen what happens with
Metronet following their restructuring.

Included in this investment are new signalling systems for the Victoria and
sub-surface lines, seven extra trains and improvements in service levels and
journey times on Victoria Line. Track, points and crossings will be renewed,
along with a comprehensive upgrade of all civil assets in the first 15
years, including 4,800 bridges, 1,600 structures and buildings, 130km of
tunnels, 155km of embankments, 225km track drainage and 150 stations.

I have to say that I will believe the Victoria Line upgrade when I see
it. I am not close to the project but given the delays Metronet have
encountered on relatively simple station projects I dread to think what
is happening with something very complex like the Vic Line upgrade. I
sincerely hope to be proved wrong as I use the Vic Line all the time.

The civil asset upgrades have a timespan of 22½ years in the contract.

LONDON UNDERGROUND ROLLING STOCK
One of Tube Lines' earliest decisions was a £160 million order for signal
upgrades to increase capacity and extra Jubilee Line cars to expand the
fleet from the current 59 six-car trains to 63 seven-car sets. The vehicles
will be similar to those already in service on the Jubilee Line, built by
Alstom in 1997-99. However, closure of the manufacturing plant at Washwood
Heath in Birmingham means they will have to be built outside the UK.

Yes - this is to deliver the seven car upgrade and achieve an interim
upgrade in capability for the Jubilee Line.

The major part of the £3.4 billion contract awarded to Bombardier in April
2003 covers the supply of 1,738 Metro cars for the sub-surface and Victoria
lines between 2008-15, all of which will be built at Derby.

If Bombardier can afford to keep Derby ticking over until then. There is
a real shortage of work and they are sacking more people. Quite where
the labour force is going to come from to ramp up production I am not
sure.

In total, 47 eight-car Movia 248 trains (part of the Bombardier Movia Metro
family) will be built for the deep-tube Victoria Line with two
pre-production prototypes arriving in 2006. Once the design is accepted, one
train will roll off the assembly line every 15 days until August 2012. The
Bakerloo Line will have to wait until 2019 for new trains.

If the Vic Line is not arriving until 2012 then I think it will be at
least 2 years late against the target. I'm not at all convinced that
date of 2012 is right.

Improved acceleration and braking will shorten journey times and allow a
planned increase in frequency on the Victoria Line from 28 trains per hour
to 33. In the meantime, 75 six-car District Line trains, the last of
existing stock to be replaced, are being refurbished.

It is true that improvements to acceleration and braking are important
but there are many related issues such as power consumption, heat
generation / tunnel ventilation, track and structures wear if the trains
are too heavy that all have to be considered. The implications of DDA
compliance are also key as revised regulations have been issued and more
are in the pipeline.

Well it is true the D stock is being refurbished. I even got on one of
the trains the other week - it wasn't too bad but then I like the old D
stock interior anyway. I just hope they have wrecked the reliability of
the trains in the process of refurbishment.

LUL SIGNALLING AND COMMUNICATIONS
Much of LUL's signalling is old and unreliable and the Infracos have pledged
to upgrade all equipment across the system.

Westinghouse has been named as Metronet's sub-contractor for the signalling
side of the contracts, worth around £850 million. It will install new train
control systems on Metronet lines to improve safety and reduce headways,
although the new system will not be 'moving block'. Around 75% of LUL
control equipment is Westinghouse and the company has been a supplier to the
Underground for over 50 years. For this reason it was the preferred choice
for Metronet and Bombardier.

Westinghouse had to win a contract from one or other of the Infracos or
else they'd be in dire trouble. Tube Lines have gone with Alcatel for
the Northern and Jubilee Line signalling and control upgrades.

THE FUTURE
By 2010, Tube Lines should have upgraded all 24 stations on the Jubilee
Line, replaced over 16km of track and repaired 5km of drainage.
By the same date the Northern Line should have had 40 stations upgraded,
delays cut, 24km of new track and over 6km of drainage replaced. A year
later a new signalling system should improve journey times by 18%, with
real-time train running information on stations and trains.
Further into the future, new signalling is planned system for the Piccadilly
Line to improve journey times by a fifth, with 93 new trains.

Typically Tube Lines are proceeding well with their station works. 7th
car on the Jubilee Line is on track for January next year. Their track
programme started late but is going reasonably well. There are big
issues with Northern Line performance and the Jubilee Line has good
months and then bad ones. It needs stability. The Picc Line - barring
the bit between Acton and Barons Court which Metronet maintain - is
pretty damn good overall. The performance numbers for the train service
are good although signal issues are problematic. There has been a step
change improvement on this line - if only we could have it on all lines.

The biggest challenges for PPP remain in the future. Concerted efforts
have seen some reliability improvements but a lot still needs to be done
to deal with the interface between aging assets and the improvement
works being implemented to replace them. The train service still has to
run in the meantime and that's where the issues are.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:24:23 GMT, "Gareth Packer"
wrote:

Not sure how Bombardier would feel about the IPR of
the Central Line trains being "stolen" to inform the design of the
Piccadilly Line trains.
--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!

What would you want of the design of the 92TS? The far too powerfull
traction system. DTS. The famous motor bracket!!

In message , Andy
writes
What would you want of the design of the 92TS? The far too powerfull
traction system.
When acceleration means reduced times between trains, then there's no
such thing as "far too powerful".
--
Clive

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:44:08 +0100, "Andy" wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:24:23 GMT, "Gareth Packer"
wrote:

Not sure how Bombardier would feel about the IPR of
the Central Line trains being "stolen" to inform the design of the
Piccadilly Line trains.

What would you want of the design of the 92TS? The far too powerfull
traction system. DTS. The famous motor bracket!!

I didn't say LU or Bombardier wanted anything from the 92 stock. Mr
Packer made the remark that Picc Line trains would incorporate elements
from 92 and 95/96 stock but you have deleted his text in your response
thus rendering my comments fairly meaningless.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

What would you want of the design of the 92TS? The far too powerfull
traction system. DTS. The famous motor bracket!!

That was a badly designed bit of support structure , not a badly
designed traction system. In fact , because the 92TS has motors on
every
bogie then in theory (and I think in fact tho I'm not sure) they could
be
less powerful and produce less wear on the running gear than a unit
that has a smaller number of high power motors only in certain cars.
Not to mention better traction because all wheels are motored. I'm sure
Alstom had a good reason for using the old style power car - trailer
car
design (price?) instead of doing the same as the 92 stock, anyone know
what it was?

B2003

for the Piccadilly Line upgrade. And performance of the current Northern
Line trains is dire so it would be doubly stupid - Tube Lines will want

I thought the northern line trains were pretty reliable. Unless by
performance
you mean acceleration in which case I'd agree , they do feel (as a
passenger)
to be powered by little more than a rubber band. Farcical when compared
to
the acceleration achieved by the older 92 stock on the central.

B2003

In message , Richard J.
writes

It would be quite authentic not to have the announcements. They don't
seem to be used by the majority of drivers, probably because they cause
the destination displays in the cars to go blank. (Are LU/TubeLines
ever going to cure that?)

According to an article in the Metro a month or so ago, they're going to
get them working properly by the end of 2006 with every station done
automatically. I wonder if this is to do with the alterations that will
doubtless be required for Heathrow T4 services?

I'll refrain from comment as to whether this is ever likely.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

In message , Gareth Packer
writes

As you will be aware, Emma Clarke is currently the announcer for the
Picaddily Line (also the Central, Bakerloo and Hammersmith and City lines if
i remember correctly)

EC doesn't do the Piccadilly - it's one of our drivers from Arnos Grove.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)