"Paul" Paul @whydoyoucare.co.uk wrote in message
...
Tube and bus fares in London paid for with cash are set to increase
next year, the Mayor has announced.
A single Tube journey in zone one will cost £3 instead of £2 while a
single bus journey will rise from £1.20 to £1.50, said Mayor Ken
Livingstone.

However fares will fall for holders of the Oyster pre-pay smartcards.

With Oyster, a zone one Tube ride will be cut from £1.70 to £1.50 -
half the cash fare. Mr Livingstone said the aim was for fewer people to
pay with cash.

Does anyone have any news on what is happening to weekly/monthly travelcard
prices?

Am just wondering if they will be going down to reflect the reductions in
Oyster pre-pay or not..

Regards
Sunil

Does anyone have any news on what is happening to weekly/monthly travelcard
prices?

Am just wondering if they will be going down to reflect the reductions in Oyster pre-pay or not..

http://www.london.gov.uk/news/docs/fares_2006.pdf

This pdf lists the new weekly prices - I think you can calculate the monthly and annual
from them but I'm not sure. Someone else may know?

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:15:56 +0100, "TKD" wrote:

http://www.london.gov.uk/news/docs/fares_2006.pdf

This pdf lists the new weekly prices - I think you can calculate the monthly and annual
from them but I'm not sure. Someone else may know?

The monthly is 3.84 times the weekly. The annual is 40 times the
weekly.

That PDF is a nice find. Strangely, there seem to be some
contradictions between the TfL press release[1] and the PDF.

The press release says: "A single journey in Zones 2-6 will cost £1 on
Oyster if you pay as you go, compared to £3 if you use cash". I was
quite excited by this. But according to the tables, it will still cost
£1.80 unless your journey only covers 1 or 2 zones.

It also says "All daily price caps for bus, Tube, DLR and tram travel
are reduced or frozen", but according to the PDF, the Z1-6 cap will be
increasing from £5.70 to £5.80.

[1]
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=534

The press release says: "A single journey in Zones 2-6 will cost £1 on
Oyster if you pay as you go, compared to £3 if you use cash". I was
quite excited by this. But according to the tables, it will still cost
£1.80 unless your journey only covers 1 or 2 zones.

Or is before 7, after 7 or at weekend. I guess £1 at peak times was too
good to be true. You are right the implication from the press release is
that its all the time. Which would mean Hornchurch to Canary Wharf
weekly commute on prepay would be £14 per week instead of £27.20
weekly ticket. Ok, I'm starting to see why the £1 "peak" fare is unlikely.

It also says "All daily price caps for bus, Tube, DLR and tram travel
are reduced or frozen", but according to the PDF, the Z1-6 cap will be
increasing from £5.70 to £5.80.

Yes and the way the caps are listed on that pdf is sloppy, just putting the
footnote about 50p off

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:15:56 +0100, "TKD" wrote:


Does anyone have any news on what is happening to weekly/monthly travelcard
prices?

Am just wondering if they will be going down to reflect the reductions in Oyster pre-pay or not..

http://www.london.gov.uk/news/docs/fares_2006.pdf

thanks for posting that link. It's the first time I've seen the full set
of fares in all their "glory". I've been away so haven't quite been
able to understand quite what all the furore is about elsewhere in the
thread. However I now understand.

While I understand the principle of providing an incentive for people to
switch to Oyster - in HK there is a differential between Octopus (SVT)
and cash fares - this is really quite extreme. I can foresee horrendous
short term problems come January when people try to get their heads
round this set up. I feel tremendously sad for passengers and ticketing
staff who will have to try to cope with all of this.

It is evident from posts here, as well as from the very low level of
take up, that people simply do not understand what pre pay is and how it
works. The huge attachment to Travelcard and its relative ease of use is
obviously a factor in making it hard for people to understand how
pre-pay works alongside it or in the case of capping or extensions in
conjunction with it. TfL urgently need to get more information out to
actual and potential card holders as to how Oyster works - publicity has
been dumbed down too far.

While I would like to think that I'm a bit of an expert on ticketing
matters I feel that I'm losing the plot in terms of trying to understand
exactly how all of this is going to work in practice. There are simply
too many variables and choices despite various aspects of the ticketing
range having been removed over the last 2-3 years.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

It is evident from posts here, as well as from the very low level of
take up, that people simply do not understand what pre pay is and how it
works. The huge attachment to Travelcard and its relative ease of use is
obviously a factor in making it hard for people to understand how
pre-pay works alongside it or in the case of capping or extensions in
conjunction with it. TfL urgently need to get more information out to
actual and potential card holders as to how Oyster works - publicity has
been dumbed down too far.

I'd agree with that. I was at a tramstop in Croydon and there were some
young girls standing around talking and when one of them queried what the
Oyster validator was another replied that 'it was for old people'.

I am trying to remember if there has been a mailshot to everyones homes
talking about Oyster Pre-Pay. Every now and again bus maps and timetables
and area guides turn up but I can't recall a Pre-Pay one.

I haven't bought a single on the bus or tube for ages. Is there any Oyster
publicity on them? It would be great if it were possible to print 'you
would have saved at least £x.xx on this ticket if you'd used Pre-Pay' on
them.

When it comes to actually using Pre-Pay, something that does frustrate me is
the signs above tube and rail platform validators that say words to the
effect of "Pre-Pay users touch in here". That simply isn't good enough.
More information is needed. For example, at Farringdon Pre-Pay users who
will be entering and leaving the station through the gates may pass these
validators on the platforms and be tempted to use them. If they are
switching between tube and Thameslink they might pass one or two or them and
again use one or both of them. Maybe this is harmless but if isn't they
should be warned off. The signage should make it clear under what
circumstances a validation is needed. Similarly at Wimbledon there are
validators on the tube platforms but again no explanatory note to make it
clear when they are being used. For example someone arriving on the
District Line and switching to the tram might think that touching in on the
tram platform removes the need to have touched out on the tube platform or
touching out on the tube platform removed the need to touch in. It is also
incredibly easy to walk past the validators on the tube platform without
thinking.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:53:27 GMT, "Graham J"
wrote:

It is evident from posts here, as well as from the very low level of
take up, that people simply do not understand what pre pay is and how it
works. The huge attachment to Travelcard and its relative ease of use is
obviously a factor in making it hard for people to understand how
pre-pay works alongside it or in the case of capping or extensions in
conjunction with it. TfL urgently need to get more information out to
actual and potential card holders as to how Oyster works - publicity has
been dumbed down too far.

I'd agree with that. I was at a tramstop in Croydon and there were some
young girls standing around talking and when one of them queried what the
Oyster validator was another replied that 'it was for old people'.

The validator concept is very difficult. We had to specify them because
they have to exist at the boundaries of the LU / TfL fare scale. You
can't ever gate every interchange point given the historical "design" of
so many of our stations. New systems design interchange between stored
value systems to work flawlessly - Hong Kong between the MTR and KCRC is
the key example. They have the advantage of always having had the
requirement to validate in and out of each system.

I am trying to remember if there has been a mailshot to everyones homes
talking about Oyster Pre-Pay. Every now and again bus maps and timetables
and area guides turn up but I can't recall a Pre-Pay one.

No but then the tickets book is readily available at stations and you
get it on the TfL website. While it has to be written for a mass market
it tries, but fails in my view, to deal with the complexities of
London's ticketing arrangements. A lot of the old system has necessarily
been "compromised" or watered down to make some things work. However
places like Wimbledon and London Bridge NR and their arcane validation
rules seem to be trying to more than compensate via their own
complexity.

My recent trip to Berlin uncovered a range of extremely detailed
booklets covering the Berlin regional fare system. As with many such
systems it is a complex structure but at least information is readily
available. Much of this was also covered in a superb Berlin Atlas that
shows all the transport routes overlaid on a very clear street atlas
complete with schematic diagrams and frequency guides for every bus,
tram and U Bahn line. First and last times are included together with
times between every stop and what routes you can interchange to at each
stop. Their stop specific information is also a model of clarity.
Please can we have this for London !!!!!!

I haven't bought a single on the bus or tube for ages. Is there any Oyster
publicity on them? It would be great if it were possible to print 'you
would have saved at least £x.xx on this ticket if you'd used Pre-Pay' on
them.

I'm not aware that there is any such information on tickets - most
people don't look at their tickets anyway. I think it is far more
important for good publicity to be provided alongside high quality
information being available for people to take away. I couldn't
understand the capping rules until I saw a series of worked examples at
work. Such examples really should be provided to customers so they can
understand how their journey variables (time, date, zone, validate or
not) relate to what they can end up paying. The average person doesn't
stand a chance of understanding whether they are being charged the right
fare.

When it comes to actually using Pre-Pay, something that does frustrate me is
the signs above tube and rail platform validators that say words to the
effect of "Pre-Pay users touch in here". That simply isn't good enough.
More information is needed. For example, at Farringdon Pre-Pay users who
will be entering and leaving the station through the gates may pass these
validators on the platforms and be tempted to use them. If they are
switching between tube and Thameslink they might pass one or two or them and
again use one or both of them. Maybe this is harmless but if isn't they
should be warned off. The signage should make it clear under what
circumstances a validation is needed. Similarly at Wimbledon there are
validators on the tube platforms but again no explanatory note to make it
clear when they are being used. For example someone arriving on the
District Line and switching to the tram might think that touching in on the
tram platform removes the need to have touched out on the tube platform or
touching out on the tube platform removed the need to touch in. It is also
incredibly easy to walk past the validators on the tube platform without
thinking.

I agree with all of the above but the problem is that the sign could end
up being 20 feet tall to deal with all of the possible journey / ticket
permutations that could arise. NR to / from LU / DLR permutations are
almost beyond comprehension because of the wide range of NR tickets. If
you then perm that with the range of possibilities of people holding
paper travelcards (from out of London) and also an Oyster for pre-pay
extensions then I can't see how you communicate clearly on a sign
without causing people to crowd by the validators and thus causing
congestions. It was mind bending when we did the initial design work to
define all of the interfaces - since then DLR and Tramlink have been
added in to system. The ticket range and the operation of pre-pay have
also changed considerably since the earliest assumptions so I imagine it
is even more complex now than in the "mind bending" days.

I do agree that many validators are "invisible" and that they need more
obvious locational signage when located on platforms or routeways.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
My recent trip to Berlin uncovered a range of extremely detailed
booklets covering the Berlin regional fare system. As with many such
systems it is a complex structure but at least information is readily
available. Much of this was also covered in a superb Berlin Atlas that
shows all the transport routes overlaid on a very clear street atlas
complete with schematic diagrams and frequency guides for every bus,
tram and U Bahn line.
This is very common in Germany. A lot of the area ADAC (German AA/RAC)
area street atlases have such information. For various reasons,
though, service revisions are pretty unco0ommon by comparison with the
UK!
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:59:35 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
My recent trip to Berlin uncovered a range of extremely detailed
booklets covering the Berlin regional fare system. As with many such
systems it is a complex structure but at least information is readily
available. Much of this was also covered in a superb Berlin Atlas that
shows all the transport routes overlaid on a very clear street atlas
complete with schematic diagrams and frequency guides for every bus,
tram and U Bahn line.
This is very common in Germany. A lot of the area ADAC (German AA/RAC)
area street atlases have such information. For various reasons,
though, service revisions are pretty unco0ommon by comparison with the
UK!

Well the Berlin Atlas had an excellent supplement that detailed all the
changes that had taken place since publication including revised U Bahn
and Metrobus / Metrotram networks where these applied. The U Bahn
service structure has changed quite considerably since my last visit and
has changed a fair bit even this year as has the S Bahn - there is still
loads of work going on.

They also had good quality leaflets about works on the tram routes for
October in the trams and an in house magazine available free on the
buses. There was also good information on S Bahn service alterations -
again with revised network maps - which my limited German skills allowed
me to broadly understand.

All a bt of a step up in quality from London practice although I accept
tube information about planned works is pretty good these days. Bus
service information - especially about changes - is dire unless you rely
on the Internet.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Much of this was also covered in a superb Berlin
Atlas that shows all the transport routes overlaid
on a very clear street atlas complete with schematic
diagrams and frequency guides for every bus,
tram and U Bahn line. First and last times are
included together with times between every stop
and what routes you can interchange to at each
stop. Their stop specific information is also a model
of clarity. Please can we have this for London !!!!!!

Have you considered how large it would be? Berlin is a tiny city by
comparison with London, and yet the Berlin atlas is too large already.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes