Barry Salter wrote:
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:56:14 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:


I'd further suggest that she was given the option of paying the £20
Penalty Fare, declined to do so, failed to pay within 21 days, and
*that* is why TfL are taking her to Court.

Must admit that if I thought I had paid[1] I'd refuse to pay the penalty
fare as well. I suspect TfL rely to some extent on the fact that a lot
of people would pay up rather than fight it.

[1] and unlike on the tube where the gates stay shut if you have pressed
the card properly on the buses you cannot tell easily (I think there
might be a coloured light on the reader)

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:20:11 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

TKD wrote:
So, what happens if the Bus card-reader is broken, and the driver
waves you on - happens a couple of times per month on the routes that
I use (308, 678). Take it I should insist on paying cash?

You can add the 8, 277 & 15 to that list and countless more probably.

The official TfL position is that you should pay the cash fare and request
a refund of the price difference from them...

Unless you were capped that day in which case you would be entitled to
a full refund.

Or if that journey was the last one that day and took you past a cap then
you would get a refund of any extra you paid in total beyond the cap.

Not a very elegant solution.

Surely since they advertise that Oyster Prepay is an accepted form of
payment, and given that you have enough credit to pay, it's totally
their problem...?

I have not seen any rules that advise on what to do if the Oyster card
or equipment is defective. It wasn't in the last Oyster or Fares booklet
that I've seen. Something has to be sorted out to explain how the whole
set up works because it is becoming overly complicated. Drivers and
passengers cannot be expected to comprehend all of the complexity and it
gets a whole pile worse come the January fares changes.

In Hong Kong it is easy - if the reader is defective they place a
special "bag" over it explaining the situation and requiring the
passenger to pay cash. The reader is a fully separate unit and is not
stuck on the side of a ticket machine (as they don't have such things in
HK just cash boxes). However it is extremely rare to ever encounter this
problem unlike in London where reliability seems to be hopeless and
there is no clear way of dealing with the problem.

I also think something has to be done about the signal strength of the
readers. Again in HK there is a degree of latitude and you do not have
to place the card flat and flush with the reader. Passengers regularly
place wallets or handbags on readers and their card is read correctly.
You couldn't do that in London because the card would not be read - I
get a misread if my card is not completely flat on some bus readers
which is an utter nonsense.

I was having a discussion along these lines with a friend yesterday, who
said that he was on a bus recently where someone got on and tried to pay
for a cash fare - with a £50 note. Unsurprisingly the driver wouldn't
accept it. Apparently the whole bus had to wait for a few minutes whilst
they wrangled about it (and I think the driver just gave up after a while).

Someone put £10 down for a £1.20 fare on a bus this morning. The driver
did not have change. I simply gave the passenger £1 to add a 20p he had
so I could get home rather than wait for 10 minutes while a debate
ensued.

Goodness knows how on earth London is going to go completely cash*less*
when it cannot cope with cash in the first place. Does anyone think
this is going to work based solely on Oyster cards and a limited
scattering of roadside machines?

Do TfL advertise appropriate means to pay? (e.g. not £50?)

They do advertise the limits on legal tender re coinage in the tickets
booklet but I have never seen a statement limiting the proffering of
bank notes for payment.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

David Howdon" "davidhowdon[nospam] wrote:
Barry Salter wrote:
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:56:14 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:


I'd further suggest that she was given the option of paying the £20
Penalty Fare, declined to do so, failed to pay within 21 days, and
*that* is why TfL are taking her to Court.

Must admit that if I thought I had paid[1] I'd refuse to pay the
penalty fare as well. I suspect TfL rely to some extent on the
fact that a lot of people would pay up rather than fight it.

[1] and unlike on the tube where the gates stay shut if you have
pressed the card properly on the buses you cannot tell easily (I
think there might be a coloured light on the reader)

There is indeed a coloured light that you could hardly miss if you were
interested in it, but TfL have never AFAIK told passengers to check that
it changes to green when they touch their Oyster cards on the reader.
In the absence of such advice, it's not surprising that people ignore
this unlabelled light and don't understand its significance.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Paul Corfield wrote
[...]
Do TfL advertise appropriate means to pay? (e.g. not £50?)

They do advertise the limits on legal tender re coinage in the
tickets
booklet but I have never seen a statement limiting the proffering of
bank notes for payment.

Wouldn't help since change can always run out, whatever float a driver
or ticket office starts with.

I remember that BAA or LT once had words with the Chinese embassy when
it became apparent that official parties were thoughtlessly being given
individual allowances consisting of £50 notes only with consequent
embarrassment at Heathrow

I don't think anyone asserts that there is or has ever been an act of
parliament requiring change to be given, though ISTR an assertion that
one ? railway comapny before WW1 had notices "booking clerks are
neither required to provide change nor authorised to refuse".

A workable rule might be that drivers could accept cheques if they had
no change for the next note up or otherwise give a receipt for
reimbursement by post . Foreigners and those who have no bank accounts
would still be stuck however.

--
Mike D

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01c5d767$ac7550a0$LocalHost@default...

Paul Corfield wrote
[...]

I don't think anyone asserts that there is or has ever been an act of
parliament requiring change to be given,

That would be because there isn't one.

Case law has established that there is *no* requirement to give
change to money proffered for payment of a debt (the case in
question was a taxi fare). But commercial realisties are such that
change usually has to be offered when a customer is 'negotiating'
payment before purchase.
Of course bus drivers don't (usually) live the commercial
world and it is of no concern to them that the pax's choices are
no change or walk.

though ISTR an assertion that
one ? railway comapny before WW1 had notices "booking clerks are
neither required to provide change nor authorised to refuse".

A workable rule might be that drivers could accept cheques

doesn't sound very workable to me. The bus waits whilst
someone writes out a cheque.

if they had
no change for the next note up or otherwise give a receipt for
reimbursement by post . Foreigners and those who have no bank accounts
would still be stuck however.

And those who don't habitually walk around with their cheque
book, I suspect this is the majority in this era of debit cards.

tim

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:27:15 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

David Howdon" "davidhowdon[nospam] wrote:
Barry Salter wrote:
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:56:14 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:


I'd further suggest that she was given the option of paying the £20
Penalty Fare, declined to do so, failed to pay within 21 days, and
*that* is why TfL are taking her to Court.

Must admit that if I thought I had paid[1] I'd refuse to pay the
penalty fare as well. I suspect TfL rely to some extent on the
fact that a lot of people would pay up rather than fight it.

[1] and unlike on the tube where the gates stay shut if you have
pressed the card properly on the buses you cannot tell easily (I
think there might be a coloured light on the reader)

There is indeed a coloured light that you could hardly miss if you were
interested in it, but TfL have never AFAIK told passengers to check that
it changes to green when they touch their Oyster cards on the reader.
In the absence of such advice, it's not surprising that people ignore
this unlabelled light and don't understand its significance.

And if you are colour blind it is utterly useless. I have to rely on the
bleep because I cannot use the light. On the trial smartcard readers for
the route 212 trial and then Harrow the lights were far larger and
distinct which meant a colour blind person could know which light had
illuminated as much from its relative position on the reader as from the
colour. You also got a clearer display about value deducted or card
acceptance than the appalling unilluminated displays on the current
ETMs. TfL - please go back to the drawing board.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Raoul" wrote in message
...
Clive wrote:
In message . ac.uk,
Alan J. Flavell writes

a compulsory ticket area

What would this be then? I've never seen signs to say, "You must be in
possession of a ticket to pass this spot.

Leeds railway station on passing from the councourse to the platforms.

That's not a compulsory ticket area, though, as it's quite possible to
legitimately be inside the barrier without a ticket. There's even a ticket
window inside the barrier.

Mike

Mike Humphrey wrote:
That's not a compulsory ticket area, though, as it's quite possible to
legitimately be inside the barrier without a ticket. There's even a ticket
window inside the barrier.

No, there's an excess fare window inside the barrier.

In message , Clive
writes
In message . ac.uk,
Alan J. Flavell writes
a compulsory ticket area
What would this be then? I've never seen signs to say, "You must be
in possession of a ticket to pass this spot.
I saw one at Ealing Broadway this morning!
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
Surely since they advertise that Oyster Prepay is an accepted form of
payment, and given that you have enough credit to pay, it's totally
their problem...?
I'd agree entirely with that. It's not yet occurred to me that I might
be expected to pay cash if climbing on a bus which turns out to have a
broken Oyster reader.

I was having a discussion along these lines with a friend yesterday,
who said that he was on a bus recently where someone got on and tried
to pay for a cash fare - with a £50 note. Unsurprisingly the driver
wouldn't accept it. Apparently the whole bus had to wait for a few
minutes whilst they wrangled about it (and I think the driver just gave
up after a while).

Do TfL advertise appropriate means to pay? (e.g. not £50?)
The latest Fares guide is as far as I'm aware, the first to mention
limits on what is tendered but I think it concerns itself with coins,
quoting the Coinage Act 1971 or something similar.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk