On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

I've had that trouble at Goodge Street once. I went back to Euston and
exited there. Your Moorgate problem sounds odd as it is a NR station,
though. My experience suggests LU doesn't insist on you exiting at the
right NR station for your journey.

At Moorgate, you don't reach NR by exiting the station - the
interchanges are all internal.

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(James Farrar) wrote:

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:23 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Graham J) wrote:

I thought National Rail terms and conditions on Saver tickets
allowed a break of journey on the return journey.

How come LUL don't appear to agree that where the saver is to
Underground Zones 1 and 2, issued by One at Cambridge? WAGN
staff I checked with confirmed my recollection of the rules.

From the 'Conditions of Carriage' (1.C.15).

"Please note that a ticket which entitles you to travel on the
London Underground does not entitle you to break and resume your
journey at any of its stations unless it is a season ticket or a
Travelcard."

Oh sh*t!

Of course, you will now volunteer to pay the Penalty Fare for the
journey you made without a valid ticket.

The staff (plural) I spoke to accepted that it was a valid ticket.

In an ideal world the staff would all be clued up, but alas the
railways are not an ideal world...

"Graham J" wrote in message
...
I thought National Rail terms and conditions on Saver tickets
allowed a break of journey on the return journey.

How come LUL don't appear to agree that where the saver is to
Underground Zones 1 and 2, issued by One at Cambridge? WAGN staff I
checked with confirmed my recollection of the rules.

From the 'Conditions of Carriage' (1.C.15).

"Please note that a ticket which entitles you to travel on the London
Underground does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at
any of its stations unless it is a season ticket or a Travelcard."

Oh sh*t!

:-)

I only became aware of it because I was using a tube between Farringdon
and
Liverpool Street and decided to hop off at Moorgate to pop into M&S. As
Moorgate is extremely close to Liverpool Street I had no intention of
resuming my journey on the tube. My gate pass would not operate the exit
gates at Moorgate. Fair enough I suppose though I can't see what there
would be to lose by it allowing me to exit but not to enter again.

It's on Clive's list as a valid interchange station:

http://www.davros.org/rail/routeing-guide.html

ISTM that for pax travelling to LivSt south on the Northern line,
exiting at Moorgate and walking is easier than changing at Bank

tim

On 1 Nov 2005 13:13:36 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

(snip)

You are entitled to one full journey on LUL on the outward and return
legs. The only way you could "break" a journey is at an out of station
interchange where the gates are configured to allow such a break but
with a time limit in place.

Out of interest, do you know how long that time limit is?

I knew someone would ask. I know what it used to be for OSIs but I
understand that it has been amended to deal with pre-pay issues such as
the one below. I can't recall what the new time limit.

I presume the same time limit applies for Oyster Pre-Pay in similar
out-of-staion interchange situations?

I believe you would be right.

I've also wondered if Oyster Pre-Pay allows for such out-of-station
interchanges at more locations than paper ticketing would. An example -
I recently travelled from Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston (on
Silverlink), then on south via the Northern Line to Balham. I was
pleased to see the following when I checked my Oyster journey history
on a Tube ticket machine...

Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston
Harrow & Wealdstone - Balham

Which is, of course, correct and demonstrates how much more complex the
ticketing logic needs to be to deal with the permutations that are
possible. Now scale it up for pre-pay for all of NR in London!

... i.e. the whole journey of Harrow & Wealdstone to Balham had been
treated as one. I've never done the aforementioned journey on a £3.80
tube single ticket but if I did I would fear that it'd be swallowed by
the ticket gates at Euston with the presumption that I'd completed my
journey.

I think you would get a ticket reject at Euston because LU fares are not
available for paper tickets from H&W while pre-pay fares are IIRC.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 19:18:06 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

You are entitled to one full journey on LUL on the outward and return
legs. The only way you could "break" a journey is at an out of station
interchange where the gates are configured to allow such a break but
with a time limit in place.

Out of interest, do you know how long that time limit is?

I knew someone would ask. I know what it used to be for OSIs but I
understand that it has been amended to deal with pre-pay issues such as
the one below. I can't recall what the new time limit.

I presume the same time limit applies for Oyster Pre-Pay in similar
out-of-staion interchange situations?

I believe you would be right.

It strikes me that it might need to be different at different
locations. I'm particularly thinking of journeys like the reverse of
the one below, where you could have to wait on the concourse at Euston
for up to half an hour before going through the barriers to board your
fast train to Harrow & Wealdstone. At Marylebone on Sundays there's
only 1tph to the Amersham line (and you can't really go through the
barriers until the platform is announced, shortly before departure).
OK so it's unlikely anyone would end up waiting for the full hour, but
it shows that you can't easily define a maximum interchange time.

OTOH, at a Tube interchange like KX, or going in the other direction
(Euston NR to Euston Tube), 15 minutes would be more than plenty.

Incidentally, if you arrived at the NR concourse to find a long wait
ahead (e.g. if your train was cancelled), is there any way you could
decide to continue your journey by Tube instead without being charged
for a new journey? (At Euston you might be able resume from Euston
Square, but what about, say, Marylebone?)

I've also wondered if Oyster Pre-Pay allows for such out-of-station
interchanges at more locations than paper ticketing would. An example -
I recently travelled from Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston (on
Silverlink), then on south via the Northern Line to Balham. I was
pleased to see the following when I checked my Oyster journey history
on a Tube ticket machine...

Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston
Harrow & Wealdstone - Balham

Which is, of course, correct and demonstrates how much more complex the
ticketing logic needs to be to deal with the permutations that are
possible. Now scale it up for pre-pay for all of NR in London!

... i.e. the whole journey of Harrow & Wealdstone to Balham had been
treated as one. I've never done the aforementioned journey on a £3.80
tube single ticket but if I did I would fear that it'd be swallowed by
the ticket gates at Euston with the presumption that I'd completed my
journey.

It'd be nice if there was a list available of all the out-of-station
interchanges. IMHO information like this should be made available to
passengers, as it's a fairly opaque part of the ticketing system, and
it would make their journeys easier without having to worry about
being charged twice. Does anyone have one? Some of them are less than
obvious (e.g. Baker Street to Marylebone NR).

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

I've had that trouble at Goodge Street once. I went back to Euston
and exited there. Your Moorgate problem sounds odd as it is a NR
station, though. My experience suggests LU doesn't insist on you
exiting at the right NR station for your journey.

At Moorgate, you don't reach NR by exiting the station - the
interchanges are all internal.

OIC. Never used the interchange.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article . com,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(James Farrar) wrote:

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:23 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Graham J) wrote:

I thought National Rail terms and conditions on Saver tickets
allowed a break of journey on the return journey.

How come LUL don't appear to agree that where the saver is to
Underground Zones 1 and 2, issued by One at Cambridge? WAGN
staff I checked with confirmed my recollection of the rules.

From the 'Conditions of Carriage' (1.C.15).

"Please note that a ticket which entitles you to travel on the
London Underground does not entitle you to break and resume
your journey at any of its stations unless it is a season
ticket or a Travelcard."

Oh sh*t!

Of course, you will now volunteer to pay the Penalty Fare for the
journey you made without a valid ticket.

The staff (plural) I spoke to accepted that it was a valid ticket.

In an ideal world the staff would all be clued up, but alas the
railways are not an ideal world...

So it would appear. I'm not likely to make the same journey again.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 1 Nov 2005 13:13:36 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

(snip)

I've also wondered if Oyster Pre-Pay allows for such out-of-station
interchanges at more locations than paper ticketing would. An example -
I recently travelled from Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston (on
Silverlink), then on south via the Northern Line to Balham. I was
pleased to see the following when I checked my Oyster journey history
on a Tube ticket machine...

Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston
Harrow & Wealdstone - Balham

Which is, of course, correct and demonstrates how much more complex the
ticketing logic needs to be to deal with the permutations that are
possible. Now scale it up for pre-pay for all of NR in London!

And presumably why when (if!) Pre Pay comes to NR, it will be on the
basis of a zonal fares system (which wouldn't necessarily have to be
the same fares as the Tube). I always cringe at those who suggest the
current route-by-route NR fare structure could be handled by Pre Pay,
the complexity would be horrendous (and the passenger confusion would
be pretty bad too).

... i.e. the whole journey of Harrow & Wealdstone to Balham had been
treated as one. I've never done the aforementioned journey on a £3.80
tube single ticket but if I did I would fear that it'd be swallowed by
the ticket gates at Euston with the presumption that I'd completed my
journey.

I think you would get a ticket reject at Euston because LU fares are not
available for paper tickets from H&W while pre-pay fares are IIRC.

Doh! I forgot about that, what with H&W to Kenton being AIUI the sole
example on the LU network of where NR/LUL printed ticketing is not
interavailable (hence H&W to Euston not being valid on a LU printed
ticket)

OK, if I adjust my example a little, still using the DC lines (the
joint Bakerloo/ Silverlink Metro line) - if I went from Wembley Central
to Euston then on southwards to Balham on the Northern line, this is
what I'd see on the Journey History screen...

Wembley Central - Euston
Wembley Central - Balham

But would I be able to complete the same journey on a printed ticket? I
reckon I should be able to, but I'd be anxious that the automatic gates
at Euston would retain it, under the logic that my ticket was a Zone
1-4 single and I'd just completed a journey from Zone 4 into Zone 1.

Paul C

Thanks for the rest of your reply.

On 3 Nov 2005 05:39:01 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

I think you would get a ticket reject at Euston because LU fares are not
available for paper tickets from H&W while pre-pay fares are IIRC.

Doh! I forgot about that, what with H&W to Kenton being AIUI the sole
example on the LU network of where NR/LUL printed ticketing is not
interavailable (hence H&W to Euston not being valid on a LU printed
ticket)

OK, if I adjust my example a little, still using the DC lines (the
joint Bakerloo/ Silverlink Metro line) - if I went from Wembley Central
to Euston then on southwards to Balham on the Northern line, this is
what I'd see on the Journey History screen...

Wembley Central - Euston
Wembley Central - Balham

But would I be able to complete the same journey on a printed ticket? I
reckon I should be able to, but I'd be anxious that the automatic gates
at Euston would retain it, under the logic that my ticket was a Zone
1-4 single and I'd just completed a journey from Zone 4 into Zone 1.

Yes you would be able to because both "sides" of Euston should be
configured as a OSI to deal with the fact that LUL fares are valid on
Tube and NR services either "side" of the gatelines. A LUL issued SOO
(station of origin) ticket should work the same as a TOC issued ticket.
For Harrow and Wealdstone the LU issued ticket would have to be SOD
(Station of Destination) format and coding. These are technicalities in
the ticket types and coding and work in different ways in the gates. Too
complex to explain here but the gates can deal with the differential
validities arising from the rules. It should be imperceptible to the
passenger.

Same as for Liverpool St or Fenchurch St where LUL station of origin
tickets and fares apply to Stratford or Barking / Upminster. Note that
Liv St has to deal with tickets to all three destinations given the
occasional use of that terminal by C2C trains.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 3 Nov 2005 05:39:01 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

But would I be able to complete the same journey on a printed ticket? I
reckon I should be able to, but I'd be anxious that the automatic gates
at Euston would retain it, under the logic that my ticket was a Zone
1-4 single and I'd just completed a journey from Zone 4 into Zone 1.

Such anxiety ought to be unnecessary - it's a result of a lack of
information being made available to passengers. This is why I think a
list of permitted out-of-station interchanges should be made
available.