Clive Feather:
Check the timetables. If they show first class is available on a
service, you need a first class ticket to sit in first class. If they
show it as standard class only, you can sit anywhere on the train with a
standard class ticket, irrespective of what the seating is like.

So why is this allowed? I have no problem if the train operators want
to use their first-class rolling stock this way, but it seems obvious
to me that they should be required to mark it as second class, instead
of requiring passengers who don't buy first-class tickets to know which
trains the timetable says first class exists on.
--
Mark Brader | "And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages,
Toronto | hundreds of points of view. It was not called the
| Net of a Million Lies for nothing." --Vernor Vinge

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article , James Farrar
writes
AFAIK there are no first class fares available along that route, and
certainly not for my part of it.

Does that, therefore, mean that I am entitled to sit in the "First
Class" area with my Z1-3 Annual?

It's nothing to do with what fares are available.

Check the timetables. If they show first class is available on a service,
you need a first class ticket to sit in first class. If they show it as
standard class only, you can sit anywhere on the train with a standard
class ticket, irrespective of what the seating is like.

Is this stated officially anywhere? I have heard this rule mentioned in this
group many times but I can't find any reference to it in the Conditions of
Carriage.

Peter Smyth

Mark Brader wrote:

So why is this allowed? I have no problem if the train operators want
to use their first-class rolling stock this way, but it seems obvious
to me that they should be required to mark it as second class, instead
of requiring passengers who don't buy first-class tickets to know
which trains the timetable says first class exists on.

Once upon a dim distant time paper window labels were used to indicate
declassified accommodation. However, that died out during the British Rail
days (around the mid to late 1970s). Other than on the Midland Main Line
Meridians, where there are 'permanent' window labels in one vehicle,
declassifying standard class, I don't recall seeing it in many years. I
suspect that it fell out of favour with higher diagramming of stock,
resulting in stock working on several routes in a day, some of which may
require first class accommodation, and the manpower was not there to keep
labelling and de-labelling stock. However, IIRC, most of the Windsor line
diagrams are captive and stock could, theoretically, be labelled up at the
start of the day and remain so until end of service.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:01:47 +0000, Paul
said:

Funny you should mention the Windsor line. The Windsor & Eaton train
via Whitton I get each morning & evening has a first class carriage, but
there is no first class service available on the train. So anyone can
sit in 1st class, but I think most people don't know this...

If they're anything like the contract ticket inspectors that Southern
use, the staff don't know either. Occasionally you'll find one of
their goons standing in the gangway blocking off a supposedly first
class section of a train which the timetable claims is all standard
class, and keeping it empty despite the rest of the train not even
having any more room to stand in.

Thankfully, those trains always have spare seats at the stations I get
on and off at.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

"David Cantrell" wrote in message
...

If they're anything like the contract ticket inspectors that Southern
use, the staff don't know either. Occasionally you'll find one of
their goons standing in the gangway blocking off a supposedly first
class section of a train which the timetable claims is all standard
class, and keeping it empty despite the rest of the train not even
having any more room to stand in.

Thankfully, those trains always have spare seats at the stations I get
on and off at.


David Cantrell

Fortunately the Desiros still have guards, who should be aware of this, and
IIRC their office is just next to the first class section.

Paul

Paul wrote:

I think I've seen something on the scrolling display on a train. It
was only a glance but it didn't seem to show it again (until I got
bored).

Yes, it scrolls round between listing the destination and stopping pattern
(usually after station stops) and says 'All seats on this train are standard
class'. I made a note of checking it yesterday on a couple of W&E trains -
it ought to show more frequently though.