Mizter T wrote:


I wonder what the proceedure is for adding stations to the zones or
changing which zones a station is in. I presume TfL must be consulted,
and the other London train companies need to OK it as well. I guess
that's what ATOC's London Schemes Council is for.




Well i'd love to get an answer to what i've been wondering for years
now. How come Watford Junction isn't in the travelcard zones when it is
nearer to london than say, Epping? It's even within the M25 area! I
used to think it was because Virgin stopped there but Virgin don't let
people travel to Watford from London.

"GreatWesternSean" wrote in message
oups.com...


Well i'd love to get an answer to what i've been wondering for years
now. How come Watford Junction isn't in the travelcard zones when it is
nearer to london than say, Epping? It's even within the M25 area! I
used to think it was because Virgin stopped there but Virgin don't let
people travel to Watford from London.


Epping was only added to the TfL zone system recently (1998ish) -
previously, the stations on the Epping branch of the Central Line outside of
Greater London behaved like the Met stations beyond Moor Park do now. The
idea is to simplify life for Tube travellers (and for TfL ticketing!). The
stations around Hainault, many of which are also in Essex, were in the zone
stysem from the start to simplify life for passengers going round the loop.

The Met stations remain outside the standard zone system because even in the
interests of simplification, it would be silly to treat a 15 minute
Surbiton - London journey as the same as a 45 minute Amersham - London
journey.

So Watford Junction is out because it doesn't have an Underground service.
Watford Met is out because that bit of the Met has to go beyond the zone
system anyway, so there are no simplification benefits. If TfL were to take
over the DC lines (whether as part of a takeover of NLL service
specification, or a conversion to the Bakerloo - both mooted by official
types recently), things might change, or they might not.

NB Watford is only within the M25 area because the M25 bulges out to go
round Watford:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51....0.853226&hl=en

--
John Band
astic - delete iastic to reply

John Band wrote:
"GreatWesternSean" wrote in message
oups.com...


Well i'd love to get an answer to what i've been wondering for years
now. How come Watford Junction isn't in the travelcard zones when it is
nearer to london than say, Epping? It's even within the M25 area! I
used to think it was because Virgin stopped there but Virgin don't let
people travel to Watford from London.


Epping was only added to the TfL zone system recently (1998ish) -
previously, the stations on the Epping branch of the Central Line outside of
Greater London behaved like the Met stations beyond Moor Park do now. The
idea is to simplify life for Tube travellers (and for TfL ticketing!). The
stations around Hainault, many of which are also in Essex, were in the zone
stysem from the start to simplify life for passengers going round the loop.


You may be right about that, and in that case I was wrong in my other
post, and that would mean that the Hainault line was the only bit
outside of London when zones started.

But I had thought (as I mentioned elsewhere) that it was around the
same time as the Hampton Court line, which I definitely needed
extensions for up to the early 1990s and then no longer did afterwards.


The Met stations remain outside the standard zone system because even in the
interests of simplification, it would be silly to treat a 15 minute
Surbiton - London journey as the same as a 45 minute Amersham - London
journey.

So Watford Junction is out because it doesn't have an Underground service.
Watford Met is out because that bit of the Met has to go beyond the zone
system anyway, so there are no simplification benefits. If TfL were to take
over the DC lines (whether as part of a takeover of NLL service
specification, or a conversion to the Bakerloo - both mooted by official
types recently), things might change, or they might not.

NB Watford is only within the M25 area because the M25 bulges out to go
round Watford:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51....0.853226&hl=en

--
John Band
astic - delete iastic to reply

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:27:01 +0000 (UTC), "Chris Read"
wrote:

What's the logic in extending Z6 to Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner, but
not to Epsom? Are there particular difficulties caused by Southern 'sharing
the flow' from Epsom with SWT?

Perhaps because Tattenham Corner is the end of that particular line?
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

Perhaps because Tattenham Corner is the end of that particular line?

I'm sure that's it - all the stations mentioned are termini of lines
that are partly in GL (and there are no competing operators) save Upper
Warlingham (which would be daft to be outside when the Whyteleaves are
inside). So it's a bit of an Epping or Hampton Court effect. On my maps
Watford is farther out than any of these.

That leaves Shepperton as the only such terminus not covered in this
way AFAICS. Make those TV audience wannabees urged to head there pay
extra?

In that area, I don't understand why stations from Kingston to Fulwell
are in Zone 5 (as they geographically should be) rather than Zone 6,
unless they're trying to keep all the Hamptons together (no pun
intended.)

Then there's Dartford. It's hard for customers on the 3 north Kent
parallels to get from one line to the other without going back to
Lewisham which might not be in their zone. Is it permitted to change
trains at either Dartford or Lewisham on a travelcard if you promise
not to leave the station?

wrote

Then there's Dartford. It's hard for customers on the 3 north Kent
parallels to get from one line to the other without going back to
Lewisham which might not be in their zone. Is it permitted to change
trains at either Dartford or Lewisham on a travelcard if you promise
not to leave the station?

Not permitted. There are off-peak trains which loop between Crayford and
Slade Green (and these stay within Zone 6, although they cross the Greater
London boundary), and a few peak trains which loop between Barnehurst and
Slade Green. You can of course use a Travelcard to get to Dartford, as long
as you travel on a London bus, and not a train.

Peter

wrote:
[snip]
Then there's Dartford. It's hard for customers on the 3 north Kent
parallels to get from one line to the other without going back to
Lewisham which might not be in their zone. Is it permitted to change
trains at either Dartford or Lewisham on a travelcard if you promise
not to leave the station?

No, zonal tickets have to cover the entirety of your journey. You can't
go from West Drayton to Upminster with just a zone 6 travelcard, even
with appropriate promises

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

Larry Lard wrote in
:

wrote:
[snip]
Then there's Dartford. It's hard for customers on the 3 north Kent
parallels to get from one line to the other without going back to
Lewisham which might not be in their zone. Is it permitted to change
trains at either Dartford or Lewisham on a travelcard if you promise
not to leave the station?

No, zonal tickets have to cover the entirety of your journey. You
can't go from West Drayton to Upminster with just a zone 6
travelcard, even with appropriate promises

That's why the *******s have made North London Line stations alternate
between two different zones to prevent someone going from Richmond to North
Woolwich on just a single zone ticket.

Then there's Dartford. It's hard for customers on the 3 north Kent
parallels to get from one line to the other without going back to
Lewisham which might not be in their zone. Is it permitted to change
trains at either Dartford or Lewisham on a travelcard if you promise
not to leave the station?

An anomaly is that holders of freedom passes can use Dartford station.

Epping was only added to the TfL zone system recently (1998ish) -
previously, the stations on the Epping branch of the Central Line outside of Greater London
behaved like the Met stations beyond Moor Park do now. The idea is to simplify life for Tube
travellers (and for TfL ticketing!). The stations around Hainault, many of which are also in
Essex, were in the zone stysem from the start to simplify life for passengers going round the
loop.

All of the stations on the Hainult loop are within walking distance of the Greater
London boundary. The main reason for there inclusion was probably so a journey
from Woodford to Hainault (both in London) would not be charged excessively
because of passing briefly into Essex.