On 11 Dec 2005 04:48:08 -0800, "
wrote:

Having read this thread with interest, and having queued for almost 2
hours on Thursday (unsuccessfully, I might add!), I can give the
following observations:-

(a) Yes, Mike Walton, the manager is VERY helpful, but constrained by
his "political masters" (his words, not mine),

He has said something similar to me.

(b) Mike Walton is very put upon, having a genuine wish to help real
enthusiasts but prevented from doing more by others (although not
expressly stated, including his staff);

I don't doubt his wish to help. I might question the rest of the remark
- he is the manager after all.

(d) A combination of T.F.L. (who disliked intensely the very concept of
commemorating the last RM) and EFE (who seem to have genuine capacity
problems) limited the TOTAL output of these 2 special RML models to
1000 of each;

You keep saying TfL dislike the concept of commemoration. They've done
some very strange things then given this apparent dislike. Where do you
get this view from?

(e) The official line is that the Shop "lacked the logistics" to either
stock more than 300 models per day or handle the sales in any other way
than have the idiotic queues that were seen on all 3 days;

Well there is a limit to their storage space but there is still storage
space in the main museum that is accessible. I know this because that is
where they held my Sunstar RMC until I was able to collect it.

(f) The Covent Garden authorities were less than pleased at the way
this was handled, since 300 or more people queuing around the gallery
of the lower-floor artistes' performing area harmed trade generally for
those 3 days;

They can't have it both ways if you take on board Ian's remarks about
exercising a lot of control of the area. If they didn't want queues
around this area they should have facilitated other arrangements. If
they weren't prepared to help then tough. As I suspect the Museum shop
is the most successful retail outlet in the whole piazza then I think
they have little to complain about. The Museum brings a considerable
"foot fall" to the area which makes it attractive to the retailers who
decide to pay the rents to have a presence in the area.

(g) It was T.F.L. who forbade firstly a stall at Streatham Bus Garage
and then at Telford Road - ostensibly because of "health and safety"
but in reality because of the point made in (d) above.

Odd then that there was a stand selling models, books and magazines at
Streatham on Thursday then. If it was banned I don't see how it was
still there by early afternoon - if it was a problem I'm sure the police
would have closed it down. As for Telford Avenue - well this is an
operational garage on a very busy stretch of road. With the best will in
the world I cannot see how a stand could be organised there without
there being congestion and accident risks or else disruption to Arriva's
operations that would ripple across an area of South London thus
inconveniencing a lot of people.

And finally, to the utter consternation of one of those same (upstairs)
"unhelpful" staff, they had their biggest sale ever just ahead of me in
the Friday evening queue: a man demanding to buy a real Routemaster:
eventually they put him through to Ensignbus on the Shop telephone and
as I left he was giving his credit card details to secure the sale!

I don't doubt the staff have difficult people to deal with but they
could be a damn sight more helpful and pleasant *consistently* than they
are. And yes I do know what it is like dealing with the great general
public at times before that particular comment is thrown back in my
face.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

(b) Mike Walton is very put upon, having a genuine wish to help real
enthusiasts but prevented from doing more by others (although not
expressly stated, including his staff);


"I don't doubt his wish to help. I might question the rest of the
remark
- he is the manager after all. "


Yes, but T.F.L. ultimately control the purse-strings, which is the
point I think he was making.


"You keep saying TfL dislike the concept of commemoration. They've done

some very strange things then given this apparent dislike. Where do
you
get this view from? "

Well, it's something I suspected anyway but it was confirmed by the
comments that came from Mike Walton, words like "the whole thing has
become so mired in controversy", referring to the 2-day commemoration
and "T.F.L. put a limit on the numbers of models".

(g) It was T.F.L. who forbade firstly a stall at Streatham Bus Garage
and then at Telford Road - ostensibly because of "health and safety"
but in reality because of the point made in (d) above.


"Odd then that there was a stand selling models, books and magazines at

Streatham on Thursday then. If it was banned I don't see how it was
still there by early afternoon - if it was a problem I'm sure the
police
would have closed it down. As for Telford Avenue - well this is an
operational garage on a very busy stretch of road. With the best will
in
the world I cannot see how a stand could be organised there without
there being congestion and accident risks or else disruption to
Arriva's
operations that would ripple across an area of South London thus
inconveniencing a lot of people. "

I was at Streatham on Thursday and didn't see any stall. But, (and I
don't doubt what you say) there was one earlier, I presume it was not
the Museum's stall and may have been established "illegally" and later
closed down by T.F.L. when they found out what was happening. In any
event, would this not have constiuted illegal street trading if no
licence had been obtained?

In the end, given the massive numbers of people outside Brixton Garage,
and the fact that the road was closed for half an hour or longer, I
don't think that a sales stand would have made that much difference.
Memory is a fickle jade, but do I not recall that there were some sales
stands at Barking on 7th April 1979? I certainly bought a commemorative
postal cover there that day.

"I don't doubt the staff have difficult people to deal with but they
could be a damn sight more helpful and pleasant *consistently* than
they
are. "

I agree: I normally have as little verbal contact with them as humanly
possible. Mr. Walton is an exception and he was most apologetic on
Friday for the model debacle, saying "we are a public service after
all".

Marc.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:39:44 -0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

However Stagecoach has run its RML 2760
on the 15 a few times - I have seen it. It will not be allowed to run as
a substitute vehicle from 1/1/2006 without permission from TfL. This is
because it would not meet the contracted emission standards that come
into force from that date for TfL contracted services.


I have not only seen it... I was on it this morning.



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:31:28 -0000, Dockland
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:39:44 -0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

However Stagecoach has run its RML 2760
on the 15 a few times - I have seen it. It will not be allowed to run as
a substitute vehicle from 1/1/2006 without permission from TfL. This is
because it would not meet the contracted emission standards that come
into force from that date for TfL contracted services.


I have not only seen it... I was on it this morning.

Maybe I'm in the minority but how can we be commemorating the last RM
in service if there are still two routes running and even an RML from
time to time? At least when the RTs went from Barking that really was
the last day of scheduled RT service.

Paul

Paul wrote:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:31:28 -0000, Dockland
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:39:44 -0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

However Stagecoach has run its RML 2760
on the 15 a few times - I have seen it. It will not be allowed to run as
a substitute vehicle from 1/1/2006 without permission from TfL. This is
because it would not meet the contracted emission standards that come
into force from that date for TfL contracted services.


I have not only seen it... I was on it this morning.

Maybe I'm in the minority but how can we be commemorating the last RM
in service if there are still two routes running and even an RML from
time to time? At least when the RTs went from Barking that really was
the last day of scheduled RT service.


Because these toytown routes are not services of much real use to
anybody. Just a funfair ride. It is like going on a steam railway -
maybe good fun, and well worth doing, but nothing much like what the
railways used to be. There is no doubt that last week was the end of
proper Routemaster operation, and therefore deserved to be marked.

"umpston" wrote in message
oups.com...

There is no doubt that last week was the end of proper
Routemaster operation, and therefore deserved to be marked.

No-one else seems to have mentioned that there were RTs running up Abbey
Road - I know not whence or whither.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

In message .com,
umpston writes
Because these toytown routes are not services of much real use to
anybody.

Just to make an observation to this:

*Anything* which augments the bus service between Tower Hill and
Trafalgar Square can only be a Good Thing in my view. This much be one
of the worst served (in terms of demand) corridors in Central London.

The "9" would also be handier if it actually went to the South
Kensington Museum, rather than turning around at the Royal Albert hall.
(But I understand that it can't do that because it would then be
providing a service not available by low-floor vehicles.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ian Jelf wrote:
In message .com,
umpston writes
Because these toytown routes are not services of much real use to
anybody.

Just to make an observation to this:

*Anything* which augments the bus service between Tower Hill and
Trafalgar Square can only be a Good Thing in my view. This much be one
of the worst served (in terms of demand) corridors in Central London.

The "9" would also be handier if it actually went to the South
Kensington Museum, rather than turning around at the Royal Albert hall.
(But I understand that it can't do that because it would then be
providing a service not available by low-floor vehicles.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ian, indeed, why on Earth doesn't the Disney 9 at least go as far as
High Street Kensington? Terminating in front of the Royal Albert Hall
is utterly ludicrous, with not even an Underground station reasonably
nearby. If it went that far, it would not be contravening the
"disabled" restriction you referred to.

Marc.

In message .com,
" writes

Ian Jelf wrote:
In message .com,
umpston writes
Because these toytown routes are not services of much real use to
anybody.

Just to make an observation to this:

*Anything* which augments the bus service between Tower Hill and
Trafalgar Square can only be a Good Thing in my view. This much be one
of the worst served (in terms of demand) corridors in Central London.

The "9" would also be handier if it actually went to the South
Kensington Museum,
I meant "South Kensington Museum*s*", of course.

rather than turning around at the Royal Albert hall.
(But I understand that it can't do that because it would then be
providing a service not available by low-floor vehicles.)

Ian, indeed, why on Earth doesn't the Disney 9 at least go as far as
High Street Kensington?
Well, I suppose the reason is two-fold: it would require extra vehicles
and it would leave the service susceptible to the vagaries of traffic in
Kensington. It would be a good move, though, provided extra vehicles
could be obtained.

Terminating in front of the Royal Albert Hall
is utterly ludicrous, with not even an Underground station reasonably
nearby.
Actually, though, the absence of an Underground station is a good reason
for *having* a bus, of course. It's just that - outside event times -
the Royal Albert hall as such isn't actually much of a traffic
objective. It just *sounds* like ti is, if you see what I mean.

During daytime hours, Harrod's would have been a better objective but
again we fall into this "not exactly duplicated by another route"
problem.

If it went that far, it would not be contravening the
"disabled" restriction you referred to.
No, quite.

Thinking about this whole issue has prompted me to think what "natural
flows" in Central London ought to have through bus routes. By far the
most obvious is Tower - Fleet Street - Trafalgar Square - Whitehall -
Eye (sort of combining the best bits of the 15 and 11).

It had never occurred to me until recently, either, how useful the 159
is, linking Oxford Street with the Eye via Trafalgar Square, Whitehall
and Westminster. A few Heritage RMs on that section wouldn't go amiss!
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Yes, Ian, the failure to have Routemasters on that particular route,
via Trafalgar Square, Whitehall, Parliament Square and Westminster
Bridge was something that, in his impromptu interview on top of RM2217,
Peter Hendy was given a particular grilling on Black Friday.

His simplistic reply was "if you think you can make money from such a
route, we'll give you the Routemasters and see if you can make such a
service work. .... Routes 9 and 15 are receiving a £1.5 million subsidy
from T.F.L."

Marc.