wrote:
umpston wrote:

I do not believe there are any speed limits of less than 20mph on
public highways in the UK. I doubt the police can specifically enforce
the lower limits that are often signed on private roads and in car
parks, although they might well be able to arrest you for something
else if they saw your fast driving as dangerous.

There is a posted 15mph speed limit on a public road I visit regularly.
As to whether it is legally enforceable, I couldn't say. What are the
criteria for enforceabililty?

I have been told that the boundary of the speed limit needs to be
signed on both sides of the road for it to be correct, valid and
enforceable, and this particular sign is on the left-hand side only.
Does the lack of a sign on the right hand side make it unenforceable?
Come to that, should the opposite face of the sign show the speed limit
in the opposite direction? This one currently doesn't.


Are you sure it is a highway? Not all roads 'open to the public' are
necessarily highways. Council estate roads, for example, often have
'private road' status even though they may be both publicly owned and
ungated. If it is a highway, speed-limit boundary signs on both sides
would be the norm but one side may be sufficient if the road is narrow
(can't remember how narrow).

The main criteria for enforceability are the presence of the correct
signage, where needed, and the existence of a 'Traffic Order', made by
the appropriate authority, setting the speed limit. However, if the
speed limit in an urban area is 30mph on the basis of the street
lighting a Traffic Order is not required since 30 is the default urban
speed-limit. Similarly for rural roads the National Speed Limit is the
default unless there is a traffic order and signage saying otherwise.
And a traffic order will be needed for a 30mph speed limit if the road
is unlit or if the lamp columns are too far apart.

) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying :

So you think that crossing tower bridge late at night at 32mph is a
heinous crime too do you ?

Did I say that? I did not.

I think if you re-read my reply, you'll find that I actually implied that I
am far from averse to treating speed limit signs as advisory, but when I DO
get nicked, I don't whinge about it.

What you may find is that I've not actually censured the OP for the
"crime" - merely for his laughable stupidity in thinking he's got fair
grounds for appeal. He hasn't. He was nicked, fair and square, for an
offence he admits committing with premeditation. Yet he wants to appeal...

I do not believe there are any speed limits of less than 20mph on
public highways in the UK. I doubt the police can specifically enforce
the lower limits that are often signed on private roads and in car
parks, although they might well be able to arrest you for something
else if they saw your fast driving as dangerous.

Breaking the speed limit is not an "arrestable" offence (unless various
other conditions cannot be met, such as being of "no fixed abode"). However,
being stopped by the police has arrested your high-speed motion :-)

--
MatSav

umpston wrote:
wrote:
umpston wrote:

I do not believe there are any speed limits of less than 20mph on
public highways in the UK. I doubt the police can specifically enforce
the lower limits that are often signed on private roads and in car
parks, although they might well be able to arrest you for something
else if they saw your fast driving as dangerous.

There is a posted 15mph speed limit on a public road I visit regularly.
As to whether it is legally enforceable, I couldn't say. What are the
criteria for enforceabililty?

I have been told that the boundary of the speed limit needs to be
signed on both sides of the road for it to be correct, valid and
enforceable, and this particular sign is on the left-hand side only.
Does the lack of a sign on the right hand side make it unenforceable?
Come to that, should the opposite face of the sign show the speed limit
in the opposite direction? This one currently doesn't.


Are you sure it is a highway? Not all roads 'open to the public' are
necessarily highways. Council estate roads, for example, often have
'private road' status even though they may be both publicly owned and
ungated.

Well, it probably is an ex-council estate road, given its location, so
that may well apply. I didn't realise is could be a 'private road'
owned by the council. Weird. Does that mean the limit is unenforceable
if it is not on a 'highway'?

If it is a highway, speed-limit boundary signs on both sides
would be the norm but one side may be sufficient if the road is narrow
(can't remember how narrow).

The main criteria for enforceability are the presence of the correct
signage, where needed, and the existence of a 'Traffic Order', made by
the appropriate authority, setting the speed limit. However, if the
speed limit in an urban area is 30mph on the basis of the street
lighting a Traffic Order is not required since 30 is the default urban
speed-limit. Similarly for rural roads the National Speed Limit is the
default unless there is a traffic order and signage saying otherwise.
And a traffic order will be needed for a 30mph speed limit if the road
is unlit or if the lamp columns are too far apart.

wrote:
umpston wrote:
wrote:
umpston wrote:

I do not believe there are any speed limits of less than 20mph on
public highways in the UK. I doubt the police can specifically enforce
the lower limits that are often signed on private roads and in car
parks, although they might well be able to arrest you for something
else if they saw your fast driving as dangerous.

There is a posted 15mph speed limit on a public road I visit regularly.
As to whether it is legally enforceable, I couldn't say. What are the
criteria for enforceabililty?

I have been told that the boundary of the speed limit needs to be
signed on both sides of the road for it to be correct, valid and
enforceable, and this particular sign is on the left-hand side only.
Does the lack of a sign on the right hand side make it unenforceable?
Come to that, should the opposite face of the sign show the speed limit
in the opposite direction? This one currently doesn't.


Are you sure it is a highway? Not all roads 'open to the public' are
necessarily highways. Council estate roads, for example, often have
'private road' status even though they may be both publicly owned and
ungated.

Well, it probably is an ex-council estate road, given its location, so
that may well apply. I didn't realise is could be a 'private road'
owned by the council. Weird. Does that mean the limit is unenforceable
if it is not on a 'highway'?


Speed limits of less than 20 are not used on the highway partly because
of the difficulty of reliable measurement (good enough for the courts)
of such low speeds. So I doubt your '15' limit is enforceable as such.
Private landowers can certainly enforce their own parking controls but
I don't know about other traffic restrictions. The police would be
able to enforce traffic laws (such as driving without due care) which
do not require the making of Traffic Orders (speed limits, one-ways,
banned turns etc do need Traffic Orders).

However, a Council may be able to make a Traffic Order for a 20mph or
higher speed-limit on a 'private' estate road - especially if they own
it. It is quite common for access roads on Council Estates not to be
offered for highway adoption - even though the land may be publicly
owned. The owner of a private road may retain the right to close the
road or divert it if ever the site is redeveloped. In contrast, and
for very good reasons, there are many legal obstacles to stopping-up or
extinguishing a highway.

Just to complicate matters some private roads are also highways (public
rights of way) but are not publicly maintainable. The landowner must
then maintain it but has no right to close it.

Martin Underwood wrote:

The main road from Beaconsfield to Slough is mainly 30 but has 20
limits for about 50 yards either side of every traffic light junction
over a half-mile stretch - I think there are four of them. I cannot
help thinking that traffic which has priority is being penalised for
the sins of pedestrians and othe drivers who fail to observe the
traffic lights - but this seems to be morally acceptible in this
Brave New World.

Come on, Martin. Get a sense of perspective. Even if you are coasting
non-stop through the lights, each 100 yard block of 20mph running adds
under 4 seconds to your journey.
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9767288.html
(Gatwick Express, Mark 1: 4VEG unit 7910 at London Victoria in 1980)

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

... since two SP30s fell off it within the last month and a half.

How long do SP30s stay on your licence? Do all speeding convictions last the
same amount of time?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
...
Martin Underwood wrote:

The main road from Beaconsfield to Slough is
mainly 30 but has 20 limits for about 50 yards
either side of every traffic light junction over a
half-mile stretch - I think there are four of them.
I cannot help thinking that traffic which has priority
is being penalised for the sins of pedestrians and
othe drivers who fail to observe the traffic lights -
but this seems to be morally acceptible in this
Brave New World.

Come on, Martin. Get a sense of perspective. Even
if you are coasting non-stop through the lights, each
100 yard block of 20mph running adds
under 4 seconds to your journey.

Which is 2 hours a year, if this is your regular commute.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

In message , at 08:55:14 on Mon, 28 Nov
2005, MatSav remarked:

Breaking the speed limit is not an "arrestable" offence (unless various
other conditions cannot be met, such as being of "no fixed abode").

I thought there was a recent change in the law to make *all* offences
arrestable.
--
Roland Perry

John Rowland ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying :

... since two SP30s fell off it within the last month and a half.

How long do SP30s stay on your licence?

The points "count" for three years.

Do all speeding convictions last the same amount of time?

All points count for three years, speeding or other offence. They can
physically be removed from your licence after four years. Drink/Drive is
the only exception - they can't be removed until after eleven years.