Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
14:07:31 on Sun, 27 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

If you are a on a road of that kind with a speed limit other than 30mph
there will be repeater signs at intervals (can't be bothered to look up
the guidance on the interval distance).

Not if the interval at which you repeaters have to be installed is less
than the length of lit road!


One of the things I've always wondered about is how these various
"lengths" are defined. For example, if a road has such a length of
lighting up to a lit roundabout over a more major road, and then another
short stretch of lit road the other side. Is that three sections of road
each of which has to meet the limits, or just one?


There should be full size signs (not repeaters) at the point the
speed-limit changes.
Speed limits other than the national speed limit or the urban 30mph
require a Traffic Order which will include a definition (in words
and/or on a map) of the affected length of road. Therefore the
'street-lighting rule' does not apply if a traffic order is in place
including that length of road. The order is invalid if the signs were
never there or if the authority has not made a reasonable effort to
maintain them.

In message . com, at
07:12:41 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
14:07:31 on Sun, 27 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at
least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some
distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

If you are a on a road of that kind with a speed limit other than 30mph
there will be repeater signs at intervals (can't be bothered to look up
the guidance on the interval distance).

Not if the interval at which you repeaters have to be installed is less
than the length of lit road!

One of the things I've always wondered about is how these various
"lengths" are defined. For example, if a road has such a length of
lighting up to a lit roundabout over a more major road, and then another
short stretch of lit road the other side. Is that three sections of road
each of which has to meet the limits, or just one?

There should be full size signs (not repeaters) at the point the
speed-limit changes.

That is not the way people normally describe the "30 mph limit where
there are street lights". If it needs a sign, as well as the existence
of street lights, why do people continually refer to a rule which says
that all you need is street lights?

Speed limits other than the national speed limit or the urban 30mph
require a Traffic Order which will include a definition (in words
and/or on a map) of the affected length of road.

I think the bit of road I'm describing is one that might (or might not)
come under the "urban" definition. If the definition is all about street
lights, and there's part of the definition which says, in effect, you
need more than (say) 500m of street lights before the "urban" definition
is triggered: What happens when a road has 400m of street lights, a lit
roundabout (say 100m), then another 400m of street lights? Is that three
roads of 400m, 100m, 400m, none of which is "urban"; or is it one road
of 900m all of which is then "urban"? [I will ignore the fact that this
is all in open countryside.]

ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

That is not the way people normally describe the "30 mph limit where
there are street lights". If it needs a sign, as well as the existence
of street lights, why do people continually refer to a rule which says
that all you need is street lights?


Because if starting your journey in an urban area (or in the middle of
nowhere for that matter) you may drive a long way without the speed
limit changing. If there are periodic repeater signs, then it is
obvious what the speed limit is. If there are none then it must either
be the national speed limit or the urban 30mph and you must make your
own judgement by taking note of your surroundings.

Speed limits other than the national speed limit or the urban 30mph
require a Traffic Order which will include a definition (in words
and/or on a map) of the affected length of road.

I think the bit of road I'm describing is one that might (or might not)
come under the "urban" definition. If the definition is all about street
lights, and there's part of the definition which says, in effect, you
need more than (say) 500m of street lights before the "urban" definition
is triggered: What happens when a road has 400m of street lights, a lit
roundabout (say 100m), then another 400m of street lights? Is that three
roads of 400m, 100m, 400m, none of which is "urban"; or is it one road
of 900m all of which is then "urban"? [I will ignore the fact that this
is all in open countryside.]

If you have not passed any speed-limit signs then I reckon the national
speed limit applies throughout. However you would, of course, be
reckless to drive at 60mph through the roundabout and could therefore
be guilty of another offence if you tried.


ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?
--

I think the other person who said it is 200 yards (or the metric
equivalant) is correct.

However, the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 can be found on the HMSO
website.
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions are somewhere on the
Department for Transport site.
The relevant chapter (Regulatory Signs) of the Traffic Signs Manual is
unfortunately not yet on line.

All the above are lengthy, complex and full of legal and technical
jargon. However, a good article, quoting from them all, can be found
on the Association of British Drivers website at:
http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

ABD believe a greater use of 30mph repeater signs should be used in
places where, although there may be street lamps, it is not so obvious
that the urban speed limit applies. I agree with that although I also
believe 30mph repeaters in every residential road/shopping street etc
would be an unnecessary waste.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:25:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote in :

ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?



"You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your
vehicle (see the table below). Street lights usually mean that there is
a 30 mph speed limit unless there are signs showing another limit.
Law RTRA sects 81,86,89 & sch 6"

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103


"Part VI of the RTRA 1984 deals specifically with speed limits, with
Sections 81-84 dealing with different speed limits and the speed limit
order making process. Section 81 of the RTRA 1984 specifically makes it an
offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than
30mph on a Restricted Road (i.e. on an urban street lit road)."

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...032880-06.hcsp


section 81

section 81: General speed limit for restricted roads. (1) A motor vehicle
can not be driven at a speed exceeding 30 miles per hour on a restricted
road. (2) The speed fixed by subsection (1) can be altered by the
Ministers acting jointly and making an order by statutory instrument and
approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.

http://www.wales-legislation.org.uk/...?id=587&lang=E


For your information: Section 81(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
states:
The speed limit on a restricted road is 30mph. A restricted road is a road:
On which there is provided a system of street lights not more than 200 yards
apart (unless the traffic authority have directed otherwise) speed restriction
signs are not required, or
Which has been directed to be so by the traffic authority speed restriction
signs are required.

http://www.sussexsafetycameras.gov.u...ts%2008-03.pdf


Earl Attlee: Further to the Minister's response to the noble Earl, Lord Mar
and Kellie, on what constitutes a "restricted road", perhaps I might have the
temerity to refer her to Section 82 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act.
It says that,

"a road is a restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of this Act if
there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of
lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart".

There is nothing about such roads being in an urban area. That is extremely
important for rural areas and villages because a village road with street
lamps is automatically a restricted road and therefore subject to a 30 mph
speed limit.

http://www.pacts.org.uk/parliament/R...sard-4July.pdf


18. Section 81 of the 1984 Act makes it an offence for a person to drive a
motor vehicle on a restricted road at a speed of more than 30 mph. Section
82(1) of that Act defines a restricted road as one on which there is a
system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than
200 yards apart. A road which is a restricted road for the purposes of
Section 82(1) can by means of a direction issued under Section 82(2) by
the Traffic Authority cease to be a restricted road for the purposes of
Section 82(1).

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ads_505174.pdf


HMSO doesn't appear to carry electronic versions of Acts from 1984.

--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:25:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote in :

ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?


- long, long snip



HMSO doesn't appear to carry electronic versions of Acts from 1984.


Yes, my error - sorry to mislead anybody.

In message , at 17:50:32 on
Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Dr Ivan D. Reid remarked:
ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?

"You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your
vehicle (see the table below). Street lights usually mean that there is
a 30 mph speed limit unless there are signs showing another limit.

The ABD page: http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm provided
elsewhere in this thread has the distances to which I refer. It's quite
complex, and also mentions the "200 yds" distance which makes a street
officially "lit".

Assuming that it's not almost entirely written with cul-de-sacs in mind,
I assume that when they refer to (eg) "Lit road more than 600m in length
on which the national speed limit applies" that what they really mean is
"Road with more than 600m of it lit ..."

So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where the
limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required. [1].

Which brings me back to my original question: If there is a lit
roundabout (say 100m across) with 500m of lighting on each of two of the
approach roads, is that 1.1km of lit road [therefore requiring
repeaters], or three separate stretches of road of 500m, 100m & 500m,
not requiring repeaters.

[1] And if somehow you know it's longer than that, it could be 250m
before you can tell by the absence of repeaters (either 40 or NSL), that
you should have been doing 30mph from the start.
--
Roland Perry

In message . com, at
09:38:57 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
All the above are lengthy, complex and full of legal and technical
jargon. However, a good article, quoting from them all, can be found
on the Association of British Drivers website at:
http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

Thanks; used in an adjacent posting.
--
Roland Perry

In this age of enforcing speed limits to several decimal places,
isn't it time all this "street lamps this" and "urban area that"
bollox was abolished and speed restrictions were, hey, just clearly
signed, with frequent repeaters?

You can drive around some areas passing speed camera signs on every
lamppost (so it can't be a cost problem), but no indication of what
the actual speed limit IS. Even if you know that you're on an urban
road, the street lamps are 8.7 furlongs apart and it's Tuesday so the
limit is 50, chances are the muppet in front thinks it's a 30 and
the one behind rummaging through the crap in your boot thinks it's
70.


--
Ian

"Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

Roland Perry typed:
In message , at 17:50:32
on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Dr Ivan D. Reid
remarked:
ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document
where things like the "500m" above are defined?

"You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for
your vehicle (see the table below). Street lights usually mean that
there is a 30 mph speed limit unless there are signs showing another
limit.

The ABD page: http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm provided
elsewhere in this thread has the distances to which I refer. It's
quite complex, and also mentions the "200 yds" distance which makes a
street officially "lit".

Assuming that it's not almost entirely written with cul-de-sacs in
mind, I assume that when they refer to (eg) "Lit road more than 600m
in length on which the national speed limit applies" that what they
really mean is "Road with more than 600m of it lit ..."

So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where the
limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required.

But the guidelines do say that for lit stretches of 600m or more, the
first and last repeaters should be not more than 450m from the start/end
of the lit section, so it would be reasonable to expect at least one
repeater in a lit section of more than 450m.

However, the guidance is poor in my view. I much prefer the French
practice of often putting several repeater signs close together just
after the start of the limit, which leaves you in no doubt what the
limit is. In Britain, if you miss the initial sign, you will often
drive for 450m before you see a repeater, and for over 1000m if the
first repeater is on the right-hand side of the road when it can be
obscured by oncoming traffic.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , at
21:33:43 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Richard J.
remarked:
So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where the
limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required.

But the guidelines do say that for lit stretches of 600m or more, the
first and last repeaters should be not more than 450m from the
start/end of the lit section, so it would be reasonable to expect at
least one repeater in a lit section of more than 450m.

Yes, if the lit section is more than 600m. Especially if you are new to
the area, you may not know how far the lights go.

However, the guidance is poor in my view. I much prefer the French
practice of often putting several repeater signs close together just
after the start of the limit, which leaves you in no doubt what the
limit is. In Britain, if you miss the initial sign,

Which initial sign is that? We are mainly talking about isolated
stretches of lit road (whether they be thorough a village, or merely
adjacent to a junction) where there's no sign at the start of the lit
section.

you will often drive for 450m before you see a repeater, and for over
1000m if the first repeater is on the right-hand side of the road when
it can be obscured by oncoming traffic.

--
Roland Perry