In message , Roland
Perry writes
There are many places on roads where NSL applies, and upon which you
can encounter isolated junctions with street lighting (it often happens
where an unlit bypass has a junction with the "old" road through a
village). But they rarely trigger an automatic 30mph limit for that
short stretch of the road.

That's an aspect which still has me confused, and I've seen a good many
more of these recently. I agree that they are rarely marked with
explicit 30 mph limits, but if there are two or more street lights with
less than 200 yards separating them, doesn't that mean that they
automatically impose a 30 mph limit? It sounds as if you think not,
but I'd be grateful for a fuller explanation of why you think that.


--
Clive Page

nRoland Perry typed:
In message , at
21:33:43 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Richard J.
remarked:
So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where
the limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required.

But the guidelines do say that for lit stretches of 600m or more, the
first and last repeaters should be not more than 450m from the
start/end of the lit section, so it would be reasonable to expect at
least one repeater in a lit section of more than 450m.

Yes, if the lit section is more than 600m. Especially if you are new
to the area, you may not know how far the lights go.

No, what I mean is that it would be reasonable to apply the "first
repeater within 450m" rule for lit sections of between 450 and 600m as
well as for those of 600m.

However, the guidance is poor in my view. I much prefer the French
practice of often putting several repeater signs close together just
after the start of the limit, which leaves you in no doubt what the
limit is. In Britain, if you miss the initial sign,

Which initial sign is that? We are mainly talking about isolated
stretches of lit road (whether they be thorough a village, or merely
adjacent to a junction) where there's no sign at the start of the lit
section.

In which case the previous limit still applies. Where the limit
changes, they should sign it properly, and it stays in force until the
next limit change. If there's likely to be any doubt, put in extra
repeaters as necessary. But all this stuff about street lights and
whether they are close enough together is not helpful. (I mean the DfT
rules are unhelpful, not your discussion of them.) It's led to ludicrous
rules like it being illegal to put up 30mph repeaters in a lit street
unless there is a speed camera within 1km.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , at
00:16:32 on Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Richard J.
remarked:

So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where
the limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required.

But the guidelines do say that for lit stretches of 600m or more, the
first and last repeaters should be not more than 450m from the
start/end of the lit section, so it would be reasonable to expect at
least one repeater in a lit section of more than 450m.

Yes, if the lit section is more than 600m. Especially if you are new
to the area, you may not know how far the lights go.

No, what I mean is that it would be reasonable to apply the "first
repeater within 450m" rule for lit sections of between 450 and 600m as
well as for those of 600m.

I'm not sure that a repeater 450 yards into a 500 yard lit section is
every helpful. What's really needed is a repeater at the *first*
lamp-post. I have no idea why this rather simple thing isn't part of the
recommendations.

However, the guidance is poor in my view. I much prefer the French
practice of often putting several repeater signs close together just
after the start of the limit, which leaves you in no doubt what the
limit is. In Britain, if you miss the initial sign,

Which initial sign is that? We are mainly talking about isolated
stretches of lit road (whether they be thorough a village, or merely
adjacent to a junction) where there's no sign at the start of the lit
section.

In which case the previous limit still applies.

No, and this is the whole point. Where there are lights the previous
limit is irrelevant, and the limit is automatically 30mph. *Except* for
very short lit sections, and except when there are repeaters. But
because you don't encounter the repeaters immediately, nor do you
encounter the other end of the lit section immediately (so can't tell if
it's "very short" or not), there is always a doubt about what the limit
is until you've surveyed the stretch in advance.

Where the limit changes, they should sign it properly,

"Properly" seems to be defined by these recommendations about "450m"
etc. I agree that it seems inadequate.

and it stays in force until the next limit change. If there's likely
to be any doubt, put in extra repeaters as necessary. But all this
stuff about street lights and whether they are close enough together is
not helpful. (I mean the DfT rules are unhelpful, not your discussion
of them.)

And another thing. How is the 200yds measured? Is it literally from lamp
standard to lamp standard (which may be on alternate sides of the road)
or is it measured along the middle of the road between perpendiculars to
each lamp?

It's led to ludicrous rules like it being illegal to put up 30mph
repeaters in a lit street unless there is a speed camera within 1km.

That's interesting. I've seen some villages in Essex with 30mph
repeaters. I always thought that was because Essex took a different view
on where they could be installed. I will look a bit closer at the lamp
spacing next time, and see if the roads aren't in fact "lit" officially.
There are no speed cameras.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:30:26 on Mon, 28
Nov 2005, Clive Page remarked:
In message , Roland
Perry writes
There are many places on roads where NSL applies, and upon which you
can encounter isolated junctions with street lighting (it often
happens where an unlit bypass has a junction with the "old" road
through a village). But they rarely trigger an automatic 30mph limit
for that short stretch of the road.

That's an aspect which still has me confused, and I've seen a good many
more of these recently. I agree that they are rarely marked with
explicit 30 mph limits, but if there are two or more street lights with
less than 200 yards separating them, doesn't that mean that they
automatically impose a 30 mph limit? It sounds as if you think not,
but I'd be grateful for a fuller explanation of why you think that.

Looking at the rules as expressed on the ABD site - and assuming the
lamps are close enough together (200yds) to make the road officially
"lit":

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

If the lit section is less than 350m (and the speed limit either side is
40 or NSL), then no repeaters are required. This is difficult to unpick.
However, from the general tone of the rules I believe that it's correct
to assume that such a stretch of road has "missing" 40/NSL repeaters,
rather than "missing" 30mph signs.

Similarly if the lit section is less than 450m, and the road either side
has a 50mph limit. (Very few roads have explicit 60mph limits, so let's
not worry about that one).

On the other hand:

If the lit section of road is between 350m and 600m long, and has NSL
either side, then one would expect to find a "derestricted" repeater in
the first 250m. The lack of such a repeater would imply the road is
30mph.

If the lit section of road is over 600m long, and has NSL either side,
the first repeater must be within 450m. The lack of such a repeater
would imply the road is 30mph.

[And similar rules for the last two for 40mph, 50mph and 60mph roads].
--
Roland Perry

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

There are countdown signs on the approaches to some villages near where
I live: the usual diagonal stripes with a speed limit sign above, except
that the red ring is grey (presumably to stop it being a speed limit sign).

When I first saw one of those combined "countdown and speed-limit" signs,
I interpreted it as "there is a speed limit HERE, because there is
a junction in x00 metres", not "there will be a speed limit in x00 metres"

Richard [in PE12]

Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III typed:
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

There are countdown signs on the approaches to some villages near
where I live: the usual diagonal stripes with a speed limit sign
above, except that the red ring is grey (presumably to stop it being
a speed limit sign).

When I first saw one of those combined "countdown and speed-limit"
signs, I interpreted it as "there is a speed limit HERE, because
there is a junction in x00 metres", not "there will be a speed limit
in x00 metres"

When countdown signs for temporary speed limits on motorways were first
introduced, they had a black circle instead of a red one, which made it
clear that it wasn't an immediate change of limit. But nowadays, the
circles are red, which leads to the confusion you describe. I often see
what appears to be a speed limit sign, and ease off my speed, and then
notice that it's not for 300 yards because it's got three little stripes
below it. Not a good design, I feel.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)