Sounds good in theory - but given how often buses already run with
incorrect numbers on the side or back is it really workable? Or would
the information be about as accurate as that in countdown displays at
bus stops?

peter wrote:
Sounds good in theory - but given how often buses already run with
incorrect numbers on the side or back is it really workable? Or would
the information be about as accurate as that in countdown displays at
bus stops?

It's much *more* workable because the driver only needs to enter the
number and destination once, and it automatically displays throughout
the bus either based on ticket machine stages or (preferably) on GPS.
If you allow a facility for a driver to enter anything they like (or
just include every even vague possibility in the software), it also
means the bus need never show a blank destination.

It also allows for internal displays advising of the next stop
(possibly the next 2?) tied into the same functionality. These are
*very* long overdue, especially in London where a lot of tourists use
the bus, and it's scandalous that the only place they were ever used
was the RV1. They should be standard equipment on *all* buses.

Neil

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
In article 34,
(David Jackman) wrote:

Ian Jelf wrote in
:

That said, I've not seen an official statement that the removal of
"via" points is being done for this reason. Can anyone else (Paul
C?) confirm or deny this?

I understand the argument against via points is that they are
confusing as the bus may already have gone past that point and/or
they may be listed in the wrong order.

It is a valid argument but I don't think it outweighs the usefulness
of via points to those with some elementary geographic knowledge.
I agree word for word and 100% with David's sentiments here.

Doesn't this discussion highlight the need for TfL to get itself into
the 21st century and start using electronic destination information like
the rest of the country? Then via points can be updated en route to
remove ones that have been passed.
Can be but invariably aren't. Furthermore, I don't feel that London
has much to learn from the rest of the country, where I frequently see
buses running around with no destinations or wrong ones. (An extreme
example I know but one oft he small operators here in the West Midlands
has been running a clapped out Dennis Dart around for ages now with the
destination "Rushden". Ahem!)

I also find electronic displays, even the newer, better ones, *much*
less easy to read than traditional ones. I also dislike the
"scrolling" effect (quite widely used in the West Midlands) as if you're
looking at a moving vehicle and have only a short time to read its
display it might be showing the less helpful bit of information for your
point of view (ie the destination).
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In article ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
In article 34,
(David Jackman) wrote:

Ian Jelf wrote in
:

That said, I've not seen an official statement that the removal of
"via" points is being done for this reason. Can anyone else (Paul
C?) confirm or deny this?

I understand the argument against via points is that they are
confusing as the bus may already have gone past that point and/or
they may be listed in the wrong order.

It is a valid argument but I don't think it outweighs the usefulness
of via points to those with some elementary geographic knowledge.

Doesn't this discussion highlight the need for TfL to get itself into
the 21st century and start using electronic destination information like
the rest of the country? Then via points can be updated en route to
remove ones that have been passed.

Or the need for TFL staff to get out there and ride on their own buses?
--
Thoss

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:02:54 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Matt Wheeler
writes
I suspect the argument is that those disabled with poor eyesight will
find it easier to read a destination in a large font rather than
having to try and read a smaller font which is necessitated by having
1 or more via points listed in the same space.
Yes I suspect that as well.

The problem is as another poster has pointed out, the logic is that if a
person with certain type of disability can't do something (in this case
read a small "via" point), then *nobody* is allowed to do it.

The upshot of this is the truly stupid situation where we now have 13s
saying simply "Aldwych" or "Golders Green" [1] with no indication of the
very important places they serve en route.

That said, I've not seen an official statement that the removal of "via"
points is being done for this reason. Can anyone else (Paul C?)
confirm or deny this?

this has been debated on various Yahoo groups at some length. The
official explanation is that in order to comply with the DDA regulations
TfL have decided the best way to do that is to make the ultimate
destination and route number as large as possible. They also have to be
at the bottom of the blind box and beside one another. This obviously
changes the typical double deck blind design as the ultimate is
typically at the bottom and the via points and number are above.

No one can explain - other than TfL having taken a policy decision - why
via points have to go. The obvious comment is that the font size cannot
be as large as the ultimate but I have to say "who cares" if the
information that has deemed to be of *most* value is in the right size.
I guess someone, somewhere would argue "discrimination" if the font
sizes differed although this has to happen where the ultimate
destination requires a "qualifying point" to correct identify where in a
locality the bus terminates. It is worth noting that alternative
displays which were DDA compliant and retained via points were developed
by First London and shown to DFT reps and TfL. They were rejected. It is
also worth noting that Lothian Buses - who have comprehensive blind
displays not unlike London ones - do have a DDA compliant display that
retains all the features of the old blinds. Now someone go and work
that out because I can't.

I find the whole thing immensely depressing. I don't hold with the
argument about via points having been passed en route and being
confusing. I would agree that London's displays are typically very
informative and helpful. However it seems they are to be dumped in the
dustbin of old LT design that is no longer deemed necessary for today's
modern world.

One other aspect is that despite the furore London has had single line
displays on buses for many years and no one has noticed. Have a look at
the latest Buses Focus about Dennis Darts and see how many London
versions have a single line destination with no via points. You might be
surprised.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

I find the whole thing immensely depressing. I don't hold with the
argument about via points having been passed en route and being
confusing.

Do you not think that a tourist, having seen Apsley House and Marble
Arch and wanting to go on to Harrods, might be confused when a passing
bus says "Knightsbridge" but actually goes in the opposite direction up
Piccadilly?

Having lived in London for the best part of 60 years, I don't think I
would on that particular example - but I still occasionally get caught
out by "via" displays, especially when embarking from a stop on a
one-way system.

(Incidentally, I don't think there is any single satisfactory answer to
this problem).
--
Paul Terry

"Ian Jelf" wrote:

I also find electronic displays, even the newer, better ones, *much*
less easy to read than traditional ones. I also dislike the
"scrolling" effect (quite widely used in the West Midlands) as if you're
looking at a moving vehicle and have only a short time to read its
display it might be showing the less helpful bit of information for your
point of view (ie the destination).

Yes, scrolling displays are rarely acceptable. My pet hate is running up the
escalator at Fenchurch Street at 17:29, trying to remember if the 17:30
stops at Barking, to be faced with a VDU on screen 3 of 4, reminding me of
some engineering work at Thorpe Bay three weeks hence.

London Central had a few Titans with electronic displays, until they were
displaced by low floor buses. My recollection is that they were frequently
malfunctioning (the displays, not the Titans).

On the heritage 15, the Conductors amend the 'via points' before starting
each trip, such that they run in the correct order - so 'St Pauls, Fleet
Street, Aldwych' becomes 'Aldwych, Fleet Street, St Pauls'. Why was this not
done when the Routemasters were in regular service?

Chris

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:53:47 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

less easy to read than traditional ones. I also dislike the
"scrolling" effect (quite widely used in the West Midlands) as if you're
looking at a moving vehicle and have only a short time to read its
display it might be showing the less helpful bit of information for your
point of view (ie the destination).

I wonder of buses will go the way of railway stations, and replace
useful information with scrolling messages about not leaving
suspicious packages unattended.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
Doesn't this discussion highlight the need for TfL to get itself
into the 21st century and start using electronic destination
information like the rest of the country? Then via points can be
updated en route to remove ones that have been passed.

As others have pointed out, electronic displays are not necessarily
better. I was amused to note last month that buses in Paris with very
useful internal GPS-driven displays of the next stop, time to
destination, etc. still use old technology to show the via points on the
outside of the bus. They have a long horizontal board slotted into
brackets on the left side of the bus, thus being visible to people
waiting at bus stops.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
Doesn't this discussion highlight the need for TfL to get itself
into the 21st century and start using electronic destination
information like the rest of the country? Then via points can be
updated en route to remove ones that have been passed.

As others have pointed out, electronic displays are not necessarily
better. I was amused to note last month that buses in Paris with
very useful internal GPS-driven displays of the next stop, time to
destination, etc. still use old technology to show the via points
on the outside of the bus. They have a long horizontal board
slotted into brackets on the left side of the bus, thus being
visible to people waiting at bus stops.

Doh! I meant to say the right side of the bus (in Paris).
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)