I notice with interest the pictures of Kensal Green station prior to
that terrible murder. Notice that all the gates are open, indicating
that no staff are on the station at all. So these murderers were able
to mug at least 1 person on the platform and then leave without any
actual witness and then go murder someone.
I'm not suggesting that a staff member would stop these people, but if
the gates were working, staff were in the office actually watching the
CCTV, chances are they could have called for help. I summise these 2
murderers didnt have a ticket and seeing gates in operation may have
persuaded them to exit at another station having just mugged someone,
knowing it was probably seen on CCTV. If not they would have had to
jump the gates, again bringing attention to themselves and possible
descriptions. If only.........
Also am i the only one saying how bad the images are, (if they could
see the faces i'm sure we would all see them by now), and whats the
point of CCTV if no one looks at it. Lets face it, we would never have
known about the platform mugging unless the guy hadn't come forward
well after the event - he had not reported it and wasn't going to.
So nobody watches it, and if they do they can't make out anything
anyway. What a great detterent.
Do we need more staff on the stations - or less?

downunder wrote:
I notice with interest the pictures of Kensal Green station prior to
that terrible murder. Notice that all the gates are open, indicating
that no staff are on the station at all. So these murderers were able
to mug at least 1 person on the platform and then leave without any
actual witness and then go murder someone.
I'm not suggesting that a staff member would stop these people, but if
the gates were working, staff were in the office actually watching the
CCTV, chances are they could have called for help. I summise these 2
murderers didnt have a ticket and seeing gates in operation may have
persuaded them to exit at another station having just mugged someone,
knowing it was probably seen on CCTV. If not they would have had to
jump the gates, again bringing attention to themselves and possible
descriptions. If only.........
Also am i the only one saying how bad the images are, (if they could
see the faces i'm sure we would all see them by now), and whats the
point of CCTV if no one looks at it. Lets face it, we would never have
known about the platform mugging unless the guy hadn't come forward
well after the event - he had not reported it and wasn't going to.
So nobody watches it, and if they do they can't make out anything
anyway. What a great detterent.
Do we need more staff on the stations - or less?


I use Kensal Green quite often, and the gate situation is difficult to
work out. Sometimes the gates will be open at lunchtime and working in
the evening; sometimes the other way round.

Sometimes the gates will be open even when there are staff in the
office with a clear view of anyone in difficulty.

Of course we need more staff on stations, and on trains. This would be
true if only to help people, provide information etc, rather than act
as enforcers. And there tends to be less to enforce in a well-staffed
and maintained public place than in a deserted place.

Kensal Green platforms are almost totally featureless, with no
information displays or any announcements that I can ever remember.

As a local Brent councillor I have long been concerned about the state
of Kensal Green Station. Residents have justifiably raised this issue
with me and my colleagues on numerous occasions

The point about station gates and staffing is well made. In the case of
Kensal Green, Silverlink close the ticket office at 20.30.each evening.
It is unclear what security is supposed to be provided after this.
London Underground run stations are better staffed, as a consequence
the gates are kept secure until much latter is the evening

At nearby Queens Park Station, where the ticket office closes at 20.45,
with open access after this time, Silverlink advise that a security
guard is supposed to be present until the station closes. This does
always appear to be the case.

The sooner TfL takes over responsibility for setting standards at these
Silverlink stations the better. Hopefully the staffing and environment
can be improved so that they reach that expected and experienced by
London Underground passengers on other lines and indeed the Bakerloo
south of Queens Park

In the longer term we need to build on the joined up work being
developed by TfL /BTP /Met Police /TOC /local authorities along this
line


Neil



MIG wrote:
downunder wrote:
I notice with interest the pictures of Kensal Green station prior to
that terrible murder. Notice that all the gates are open, indicating
that no staff are on the station at all. So these murderers were able
to mug at least 1 person on the platform and then leave without any
actual witness and then go murder someone.
I'm not suggesting that a staff member would stop these people, but if
the gates were working, staff were in the office actually watching the
CCTV, chances are they could have called for help. I summise these 2
murderers didnt have a ticket and seeing gates in operation may have
persuaded them to exit at another station having just mugged someone,
knowing it was probably seen on CCTV. If not they would have had to
jump the gates, again bringing attention to themselves and possible
descriptions. If only.........
Also am i the only one saying how bad the images are, (if they could
see the faces i'm sure we would all see them by now), and whats the
point of CCTV if no one looks at it. Lets face it, we would never have
known about the platform mugging unless the guy hadn't come forward
well after the event - he had not reported it and wasn't going to.
So nobody watches it, and if they do they can't make out anything
anyway. What a great detterent.
Do we need more staff on the stations - or less?


I use Kensal Green quite often, and the gate situation is difficult to
work out. Sometimes the gates will be open at lunchtime and working in
the evening; sometimes the other way round.

Sometimes the gates will be open even when there are staff in the
office with a clear view of anyone in difficulty.

Of course we need more staff on stations, and on trains. This would be
true if only to help people, provide information etc, rather than act
as enforcers. And there tends to be less to enforce in a well-staffed
and maintained public place than in a deserted place.

Kensal Green platforms are almost totally featureless, with no
information displays or any announcements that I can ever remember.

I visited Kensal Green a couple years ago during the week and the gates
were powered down and ticket office closed by the early afternoon. It's
quite clear Silverlink don't give a damn about the Metro franchise,
which presumably never produced the same financial return as their
County operations (and no wonder!), and which will disappear anyway
soon. On the New Year's Eve all night services at this station were
frustrated, not by the RMT, but rather a time switch which extinguished
all platform lights between 0200 and 0500! Clearly this was the usual
Silverlink overnight practice - i.e.the idea of entrusting this task to
a person, who might also check that the station is secure before
locking up, is completely alien to them. Then there other stations on
this section which are non-stopped for days due to defective OPO
monitors, faults which if on LUL property, would have normally been
fixed within hours (or platform staff provided). The quality of station
CCTV footage also speaks for itself, next-to-useless grainy images
which wouldn't have a hope of standing up in court! And am I right in
assuming that Silverlink's trains on the North London, West London and
Euston -Watford lines still carry guards, for if so, why also is there
never any attempt to carry out on-train ticket inspection?

wrote in message
oups.com...
I visited Kensal Green a couple years ago during the week and the gates
were powered down and ticket office closed by the early afternoon. It's
quite clear Silverlink don't give a damn about the Metro franchise,
which presumably never produced the same financial return as their
County operations (and no wonder!), and which will disappear anyway
soon. On the New Year's Eve all night services at this station were
frustrated, not by the RMT, but rather a time switch which extinguished
all platform lights between 0200 and 0500! Clearly this was the usual
Silverlink overnight practice - i.e.the idea of entrusting this task to
a person, who might also check that the station is secure before
locking up, is completely alien to them. Then there other stations on
this section which are non-stopped for days due to defective OPO
monitors, faults which if on LUL property, would have normally been
fixed within hours (or platform staff provided). The quality of station
CCTV footage also speaks for itself, next-to-useless grainy images
which wouldn't have a hope of standing up in court! And am I right in
assuming that Silverlink's trains on the North London, West London and
Euston -Watford lines still carry guards, for if so, why also is there
never any attempt to carry out on-train ticket inspection?

They're not called Silverstink for nothing. The trains that go from
Richmond past Dalston (I forget where they terminate) never have guards on.
There's usually one grumpy looking unfortunate driver (I don't blame the
drivers, obviously), and that's it. I've seen one ticket inspection on the
train, and inspectors at the exit about 4 or 5 times at different stations
down the line. The ticket halls are usually closed at ridiculous hours, or
they don't have change or some other silly reason for them adding extra
angst to your journey.

dave

d wrote :
They're not called Silverstink for nothing. The trains that go from
Richmond past Dalston (I forget where they terminate) never have guards on.

North Woolwich or Stratford. And I think you mistyped "never" for
"always" - look in the back cab (it's not far from where you're
standing to get on, they're only 3-car units) and there'll be someone
operating the doors and ringing the bell. The guard doesn't do revenue
duties, largely because the stops are only 3-4 minutes apart so s/he
wouldn't be able to get back to the cab in time to work the doors. But
this is presumably why Silverlink don't care over-much about broken
OPO monitors - they're relevant to LUL trains only. Annoying in a
railway-fragmentation sense, but reasonable for SL.

There's usually one grumpy looking unfortunate driver (I don't blame the
drivers, obviously), and that's it. I've seen one ticket inspection on the
train, and inspectors at the exit about 4 or 5 times at different stations
down the line.

Yup, sounds about right. Therefore...

The ticket halls are usually closed at ridiculous hours, or
they don't have change or some other silly reason for them adding extra
angst to your journey.

....this bit isn't actually very angst-ful, since the penalty fares only
operate when you could have bought a ticket but didn't. Anyone know if
SL Metro guards are trained to sell tickets if you go to their cab and
ask them?

--
John Band
e: john at johnband dot org
w: www.johnband.org

On 17 Jan 2006 00:02:08 -0800, "downunder" wrote:



Also am i the only one saying how bad the images are, (if they could
see the faces i'm sure we would all see them by now), and whats the
point of CCTV if no one looks at it. Lets face it, we would never have
known about the platform mugging unless the guy hadn't come forward
well after the event - he had not reported it and wasn't going to.
So nobody watches it, and if they do they can't make out anything
anyway. What a great detterent.
Do we need more staff on the stations - or less?


I agree on the quality of the images.
I'm all for CCTV but what is the point if all you can make out is a
blurred human shape with absolutly no detail. Its not just Kensal
Green, most images I've seen in the newspapers don't convince me
they're an effective deterrant.


Dave

David wrote:
most images I've seen in the newspapers don't convince me
they're an effective deterrant.

I don't think CCTV is an effective deterrant at all. It either moves
crime elsewhere, or has people carry on as normal knowing that the
footage is either unusable, not real (fake cameras, faulty equipment)
and there's now less chance of a real person of authority being
employed.

Whatever the Government might say, crime is going up (particularly
assaults on staff) and CCTV is everywhere. If it was a deterrant, we'd
be seeing MASSIVE reductions in crime.

Rather like speed cameras replacing real police on the roads, it
doesn't work and only now are we starting to fully notice and
appreciate that.

Jonathan

"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message
oups.com...
David wrote:
most images I've seen in the newspapers don't convince me
they're an effective deterrant.

I don't think CCTV is an effective deterrant at all. It either moves
crime elsewhere, or has people carry on as normal knowing that the
footage is either unusable, not real (fake cameras, faulty equipment)
and there's now less chance of a real person of authority being
employed.

I'd like to see some research into that

Whatever the Government might say, crime is going up (particularly
assaults on staff) and CCTV is everywhere. If it was a deterrant, we'd
be seeing MASSIVE reductions in crime.

That's somewhat specious reasoning. You're assuming that crime on a whole
is staying the same. What if crime is increasing more rapidly than CCTV is
reducing it? If that were to happen, then CCTV would be working, AND the
crime rates would still be rising.

Rather like speed cameras replacing real police on the roads, it
doesn't work and only now are we starting to fully notice and
appreciate that.

Speed cameras do work. Just not when they're painted bright orange and have
"speed cameras ahead - stop breaking the law now or get a fine" signs all
over the place If you don't know where they're going to be, you'd not
chance speeding. If you have a 30-minute warning, then you can still break
the speed limit without fear.

Jonathan

"d" wrote in message
. ..
"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message
oups.com...
David wrote:
most images I've seen in the newspapers don't convince me
they're an effective deterrant.

I don't think CCTV is an effective deterrant at all. It either moves
crime elsewhere, or has people carry on as normal knowing that the
footage is either unusable, not real (fake cameras, faulty equipment)
and there's now less chance of a real person of authority being
employed.

I'd like to see some research into that

Whatever the Government might say, crime is going up (particularly
assaults on staff) and CCTV is everywhere. If it was a deterrant, we'd
be seeing MASSIVE reductions in crime.

That's somewhat specious reasoning. You're assuming that crime on a whole
is staying the same. What if crime is increasing more rapidly than CCTV
is reducing it? If that were to happen, then CCTV would be working, AND
the crime rates would still be rising.

Rather like speed cameras replacing real police on the roads, it
doesn't work and only now are we starting to fully notice and
appreciate that.

Speed cameras do work. Just not when they're painted bright orange and
have "speed cameras ahead - stop breaking the law now or get a fine" signs
all over the place If you don't know where they're going to be, you'd
not chance speeding. If you have a 30-minute warning, then you can still
break the speed limit without fear.

Jonathan


Not quite right about speed cameras Johnathon.... Speed camera fines are
rising, more people getting caught and yet you say they are well publicised.
If what you say were correct, no one would speed and they would not make any
money and all be gone!! So having the cameras makes no difference to the
number of people caught. Its probably the same with a violent crime,
perpetrators know CCTV is everywhere and yet still commit crimes against
people and property knowing they probably have been filmed.
Now i've confused myself.......

mal