d wrote in
:

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that
TfL has provided is very different. That's not just witholding
information. It's lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to
believe: TfL who say that their tickets are being accepted on HEx
trains or HEx who say that travel cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they
can be held legally responsible for the content of those signs,
especially when HEx are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

Surely it is unlawful for a company to post signs which say "we do not
accept our competitor's tickets" when that is not actually the case and when
the competitor has negotiated an agreement that their tickets *will* be
affected. By displaying those signs, they are making passengers think that
they have no option but to buy a more expensive ticket, when passengers *do*
have the option of buying a cheaper ticket.

Given that the signs are normally displayed and quite correctly say that
travelcards are not normally accepted, it's probably a sin of omission: they
have forgotten to cover them up during the temporary period that travelcards
are accepted. But by failing to remove those signs, they are making people
pay extra for something that they don't need to and thus laying themselves
open to accusations (in this thread) of ripping off passengers.s

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that
TfL has provided is very different. That's not just witholding
information. It's lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to
believe: TfL who say that their tickets are being accepted on HEx
trains or HEx who say that travel cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they
can be held legally responsible for the content of those signs,
especially when HEx are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

Surely it is unlawful for a company to post signs which say "we do not
accept our competitor's tickets" when that is not actually the case and
when the competitor has negotiated an agreement that their tickets *will*
be affected. By displaying those signs, they are making passengers think
that they have no option but to buy a more expensive ticket, when
passengers *do* have the option of buying a cheaper ticket.

I think the only problems would arise should a HEx ticket inspector give a
TfL travelcard holder a penalty fine, or forced them to buy a HEx ticket.
Up until then, they're not breaking any laws. Technically speaking, they
only buy the TfL ticket if they intended to travel by underground. If you
intended to travel by HEx all along, you should (morally, ethically,
whatever) buy a HEx ticket. Taking advantage of others doing favours for
people isn't exactly nice, but I'm sure you don't have a problem with that


Given that the signs are normally displayed and quite correctly say that
travelcards are not normally accepted, it's probably a sin of omission:
they have forgotten to cover them up during the temporary period that
travelcards are accepted. But by failing to remove those signs, they are
making people pay extra for something that they don't need to and thus
laying themselves open to accusations (in this thread) of ripping off
passengers.s

No, as the signs are information signs only. The actual people on the
service (ie the guy with the ticket machine on the train) can not legally
challenge TfL travel card holders.

d wrote:
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
By failing to remove those signs, they are making people pay extra
for something that they don't need to and thus laying themselves
open to accusations (in this thread) of ripping off passengers.

No, as the signs are information signs only.

Why are you content that these signs misinform in these circumstances?
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13309736.html
(08 647 at Birmingham New Street, May 1979)

"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
...
d wrote:
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
By failing to remove those signs, they are making people pay extra
for something that they don't need to and thus laying themselves
open to accusations (in this thread) of ripping off passengers.

No, as the signs are information signs only.

Why are you content that these signs misinform in these circumstances?

Because signs are often wrong. Just like you can have a price in a shop
window that doesn't represent the price of the goods inside - it's not great
for customers, but it's not illegal.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13309736.html
(08 647 at Birmingham New Street, May 1979)

In message , d
writes

Just like you can have a price in a shop window that doesn't represent
the price of the goods inside - it's not great for customers, but it's
not illegal.

It is an offence under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 to indicate a
price for goods or services which is lower than the one that actually
applies.

--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , d
writes

Just like you can have a price in a shop window that doesn't represent the
price of the goods inside - it's not great for customers, but it's not
illegal.

It is an offence under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 to indicate a
price for goods or services which is lower than the one that actually
applies.

Only if you put that price on the actual item for sale (as in not a sign in
the window). Having that on a sign is merely an invitation to purchase, not
the terms of the actual deal that would take place. Otherwise people
displaying ex-vat prices but selling to both vat-registered and
non-vat-registered alike would be in a whole heap of trouble. I would have
thought it was illegal too, but apparently it isn't.

--
Paul Terry

In message , d
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

It is an offence under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 to indicate a
price for goods or services which is lower than the one that actually
applies.

Only if you put that price on the actual item for sale (as in not a sign in
the window).

If the item in the window is one that can be removed and sold to
customers, it falls under the terms of the Act, as clarified in the
Price Marking Order 1999 (the result of an EC directive).

Having that on a sign is merely an invitation to purchase, not
the terms of the actual deal that would take place.

If the item in the window is not for sale, then it is classed as an
advertisement, and there is no requirement to display a price.

Otherwise people displaying ex-vat prices but selling to both
vat-registered and non-vat-registered alike would be in a whole heap of
trouble.

Such retailers must either "display VAT inclusive prices with equal
prominence" or "display prominent statements that the quoted prices
exclude VAT and state the appropriate rate".

However, this is getting somewhat off the point - I doubt that HEX's
signs could be described as misleading under the terms of the CPA or
related pricing orders.

--
Paul Terry

"d" wrote in message
. ..
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that
TfL has provided is very different. That's not just witholding
information. It's lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to
believe: TfL who say that their tickets are being accepted on HEx
trains or HEx who say that travel cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they
can be held legally responsible for the content of those signs,
especially when HEx are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

Can't see how they are not telling pokies on the days in quest ion. The
infoirmation on the sign is wrong - end of story.


Surely it is unlawful for a company to post signs which say "we do not
accept our competitor's tickets" when that is not actually the case and
when the competitor has negotiated an agreement that their tickets *will*
be affected. .

I think the only problems would arise should a HEx ticket inspector give a
TfL travelcard holder a penalty fine, or forced them to buy a HEx ticket.
Up until then, they're not breaking any laws.

I think they may be in breach of the laws governing advertising and sales.
The Trades Description Act may have a bearing.

Given that the signs are normally displayed and quite correctly say that
travelcards are not normally accepted, it's probably a sin of omission:
they have forgotten to cover them up during the temporary period that
travelcards are accepted.

I would like to think so, but am prepared to believe the contrary

No, as the signs are information signs only. The actual people on the
service (ie the guy with the ticket machine on the train) can not legally
challenge TfL travel card holders.

Which all goes to confirm that the HEX have misled the public. The signs may
be for information but they have to be accurate.

Roger C

"Roger" wrote in message
...

"d" wrote in message
. ..
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
d wrote in
:

However displaying posters/signs that contradict information that
TfL has provided is very different. That's not just witholding
information. It's lying. It leaves passengers wondering who to
believe: TfL who say that their tickets are being accepted on HEx
trains or HEx who say that travel cards are not being accepted.

They're not lying. They have those signs anyway. And I doubt they
can be held legally responsible for the content of those signs,
especially when HEx are doing TfL and the public a massive favour.

Can't see how they are not telling pokies on the days in quest ion. The
infoirmation on the sign is wrong - end of story.

But it's not important. The ticket inspector isn't going to look at that
sign for whether he should accept TfL cards or not, is he? He's told in the
morning "you can accept TfL tickets", and goes from there. I can appreciate
the sign is wrong, I just don't think it's that important. Especially as
TfL have instructed you that you CAN use their tickets on HEx.


Surely it is unlawful for a company to post signs which say "we do not
accept our competitor's tickets" when that is not actually the case and
when the competitor has negotiated an agreement that their tickets
*will* be affected. .

I think the only problems would arise should a HEx ticket inspector give
a TfL travelcard holder a penalty fine, or forced them to buy a HEx
ticket. Up until then, they're not breaking any laws.

I think they may be in breach of the laws governing advertising and sales.
The Trades Description Act may have a bearing.

Nope. Unfortunately it doesn't. If the ticket inspector said that, then
yes, but a sign - nope.

Given that the signs are normally displayed and quite correctly say that
travelcards are not normally accepted, it's probably a sin of omission:
they have forgotten to cover them up during the temporary period that
travelcards are accepted.

I would like to think so, but am prepared to believe the contrary

No, as the signs are information signs only. The actual people on the
service (ie the guy with the ticket machine on the train) can not legally
challenge TfL travel card holders.

Which all goes to confirm that the HEX have misled the public. The signs
may be for information but they have to be accurate.

They should be accurate, but they don't legally have to be. There is no law
demanding 100% accurate signage.

Roger C

d wrote:

Can't see how they are not telling pokies on the days in quest ion.
The infoirmation on the sign is wrong - end of story.

But it's not important.

Of course it's important. It's important to any passenger who reads the
sign, believes what it says, and ends up either getting a slow bus into
London or buying a HEX ticket despite already having a valid Travelcard.

The ticket inspector isn't going to look at
that sign for whether he should accept TfL cards or not, is he?

Who mentioned ticket inspectors? They've got nothing to do with it. The
sign is there for the passengers, not the ticket inspectors. And it's
giving wrong information to the passengers. Are you saying that's a good
thing?


I think they may be in breach of the laws governing advertising and
sales. The Trades Description Act may have a bearing.

Nope. Unfortunately it doesn't. If the ticket inspector said that,
then yes, but a sign - nope.

Are you sure? Can you quote the relevant section of the Trades
Descriptions Act? I'd love to know where it mentions that ticket
inspectors are the only legal source of information about ticket
validity. Especially since you shouldn't normally see a ticket inspector
until AFTER you've bought a ticket.


Which all goes to confirm that the HEX have misled the public. The
signs may be for information but they have to be accurate.

They should be accurate, but they don't legally have to be. There is
no law demanding 100% accurate signage.


The s15(4) Theft Act 1968 defines the Criminal Deception as, "any
deception (whether deliberate or reckless) by words or conduct as to
fact or as to law, including a deception as to the present intentions of
the person using the deception or any other person." IANAL but I think
this might qualify.

--