In message
Chris Tolley wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote:

I must check with a cooleague

cooleague: n. 1. a fellow worker whose company one enjoys.

OED please note.

fx pokes tongue out

Nice one.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

In message
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote:

It is an urban myth that Doctor Who ever went out live.

It certainly went out live in the very early years

Oh no it didn't (and I've read more than enough books on the topic to
prove it). 'Quatermass' and various plays went out live but 'Doctor
Who' never did.

I must check with a cooleague who worked on the early episodes. Can't
contact him at the moment as he is somewhere in Brazil!

I wouldn't believe everything you read in books about Dr Who...

Given that many are written by researchers who have accessed the BBC's
files, checking and cross checking the studio dates, internal memos and so
forth. The recording schedules are in existance, the tape usages are, a few
of the early episodes transmitted from film recordings still exist in the
Film Library. The evidence is overwhelming.



Given I appear in at least one of those books, I can vouch for there being
certain rather dodgy items in some of them :-)

The point about film recording is that it was often used to archive live
programmes, and for resale to countries that didn't have VT machines. The
existence of a film recording is no guarantee the original programme was
either txed live or recorded first.

I tried asking on a forum of my colleagues and got the following answer: What
is live... time is just another dimension in space.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

In message
Ian Jelf wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
The only death I've heard of in a BBC studio was a messenger who had a
heart attack during a live programme.

YTV in Leeds famously had a guest die on their afternoon chat show
"Calendar People" in the seventies. (This was the same programme - but
not edition - which saw Richard Whiteley's famous encounter with a
ferret. I'm trying really hard to come up with a railway or London
transport connection here but can't!)

I can help you there, the only time I saw Richard Whitely was on a train.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

In message
Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes

It certainly went out live in the very early years, most BBC programmes did.

According to ...
http://www.relativedimensions.co.uk/newman.html

it was recorded on videotape (which was indeed unusual in the UK back
then). Almost certainly they would have used Ampex Quad machines, which
the beeb were just starting to employ, following the failure of their
own "VERA" video-taping system.

IIRC VERA was a wire-recording system with the reels rotating at a ferocious
speed. One day a spool came off the hub and went right through the wall of
the recording booth.


I can't be certain if that URL is right, but it seems very likely - the
quality of the early episodes matches the very poor reproduction of
early Quads (nowhere near as good as film),

Even the later ones were never really that good. Recently watched a DVD of
Yes Minister and was appalled at how soft the pictures were.

and they would already have been committed to using recording for the
title sequence and for the trailers (it was one of the very few programmes
to have had trailers back in them days).


--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:56:13 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Even the later ones were never really that good. Recently watched a DVD of
Yes Minister and was appalled at how soft the pictures were.


Ahh but in what format(s) had the images languished all those years?

One of the old timers I worked with said you could get better pictures
out of a quad VTR than went in. ;-)

FWIR quad VTRs could introduce a variety of scalloping/banding type
artifacts if they were badly adjusted or worn, but overall soft
shouldn't happen. That sounds like it's been recorded on a low band
helical scan format at some stage.

DG

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:


"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...

Was that the one where an actor died on the set and the others ad
libbed
around his part? The sets were in the studio, but as a number of
parallel tunnels. It went out live.

It is an urban myth that Doctor Who ever went out live. It was simply
recorded "as live" for the first few years due to the difficulties in
videotape editing.

It certainly went out live in the very early years, most BBC programmes
did.
[...] The reason being to do with studio scheduling rather than
editing.

I'm afraid the BBC's own paperwork is fairly conclusive, as well as
interviews with Verity Lambert, the show's first producer. Every episode of
Doctor Who was pre-recorded to (mostly to video tape) at least a week before
transmission. It was curious, however, how this progressed in technique over
time. At the very beginning, episodes were recorded on a one-at-a-time
basis. The recording was made "as live" (with as few breaks in recording as
possible). Certain scenes were pre-filmed, and fed in where required to
smooth the process (Though the very first episode, "An Unearthly Child",
with what appear to be complex pre-films for its flashbacks were actually
achieved by clever direction meaning the actors who were on one set only had
to provide voiceovers for the flashbacks), but actual edits were extremely
rare in the first series. This was due to the only way of editing being to
physically cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly Child"
contains one edit approximately half-way through.

It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made it
possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely recall that
it started in the middle of the third series.

One serial ("Spearhead From Space", the opening story of the seventh series)
was shot on entirely on film. Not only was this Jon Pertwee's debut, it was
also the first Doctor Who serial to be made in colour. The reason for
shooting on film, however, was not because it was deemed "special", but
because a studio strike meant the serial had to be remounted entirely on
location.

Ironically, the first serial to use outside broadcast taping was Tom Baker's
first story, "Robot", again not because of the debut but because a large
amount of CSO ("blue screen", which was actually yellow for this story) was
required, and CSOing a video image onto film looks rather ropey (see
"Invasion of the Dinosaurs" the year before).

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better used of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most of the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though in at
least two instances, this was in error). Most episodes from this era have
been restored either from overseas film prints, or in some cases from NTSC
transmission tapes and, even more curiously, from home recordings. At least
one episode, 1965's "The Feast Of Steven", the only episode except for
2005's "Christmas Invasion" to premiere on Christmas Day, was never
transferred to film for overseas sale, and is therefore the most likely
candidate for "episode that will never be recovered".

As for the reason why the BBC chose to pre-record Who from the outset: who
knows? As has been pointed out, this was certainly not the norm at the time.
It may be that it was felt that with the requirement for some special
effects, a pre-record was necessary. It is hard to imagine how a
roll-back-and-mix effect (such as the TARDIS de/re-materializing) would be
achieved live.


--
Ronnie
--
Have a great day...
....Have a Great Central day.
www.greatcentralrailway.com

Ronnie Clark wrote:

I'm afraid the BBC's own paperwork is fairly conclusive, as well as
interviews with Verity Lambert, the show's first producer. Every episode
of
Doctor Who was pre-recorded to (mostly to video tape) at least a week
before
transmission. It was curious, however, how this progressed in technique
over
time. At the very beginning, episodes were recorded on a one-at-a-time
basis. The recording was made "as live" (with as few breaks in recording
as
possible). Certain scenes were pre-filmed, and fed in where required to
smooth the process (Though the very first episode, "An Unearthly Child",
with what appear to be complex pre-films for its flashbacks were actually
achieved by clever direction meaning the actors who were on one set only
had
to provide voiceovers for the flashbacks), but actual edits were extremely
rare in the first series. This was due to the only way of editing being to
physically cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly
Child"
contains one edit approximately half-way through.

There was actually another method of editing available as well. An episode
would be recorded not on videotape but as a 35mm film recording, which could
then be edited by splicing. In the later story "Planet of Giants" two
videotaped episodes were cut down to one for transmission by transferring
them to film and cutting (and the final episode has a lot of scene changes
where the cast have moved - something else that shows up front that the
episode was prerecorded).

It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made it
possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely recall that
it started in the middle of the third series.

They seem to have still been recording one episode at a time right up until
the end of the sixth series, and even in the next few years the doubling up
was mainly to save on the cost of storing sets. From about the seventh
series they seem to have been recorded on a stop start method.

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better used
of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most of
the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though in
at
least two instances, this was in error).

What errors were these?

Most episodes from this era have
been restored either from overseas film prints, or in some cases from NTSC
transmission tapes and, even more curiously, from home recordings. At
least
one episode, 1965's "The Feast Of Steven", the only episode except for
2005's "Christmas Invasion" to premiere on Christmas Day, was never
transferred to film for overseas sale, and is therefore the most likely
candidate for "episode that will never be recovered".

Mind you from recollection the second series of Dad's Army was not
transferred either and yet two of the missing episodes turned up a few years
ago.

As for the reason why the BBC chose to pre-record Who from the outset: who
knows? As has been pointed out, this was certainly not the norm at the
time.

I was under the impression that by 1963 it *was* the norm for drama shows -
Z-Cars seems to have been regarded as unusual for still being live.

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Ronnie Clark wrote:

This was due to the only way of editing being to
physically cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly
Child"
contains one edit approximately half-way through.

There was actually another method of editing available as well. An episode
would be recorded not on videotape but as a 35mm film recording, which
could
then be edited by splicing. In the later story "Planet of Giants" two
videotaped episodes were cut down to one for transmission by transferring
them to film and cutting (and the final episode has a lot of scene changes
where the cast have moved - something else that shows up front that the
episode was prerecorded).

Ah, the old cheat My post was quite lengthy, and whilst I thought about
mentioning the re-jiggin of "Planet Of Giants", I couldn't be bothered


It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made it
possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely recall
that
it started in the middle of the third series.

They seem to have still been recording one episode at a time right up
until
the end of the sixth series, and even in the next few years the doubling
up
was mainly to save on the cost of storing sets. From about the seventh
series they seem to have been recorded on a stop start method.

I think it became hit and miss. I recall a few early Pertwee stories were
one-at-a-time, notably "Spearhead From Space" (it probably proving cheaper
to just reshoot the overlap between episodes than splice in the same clip
from the previous episode.

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better
used
of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most of
the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though in
at
least two instances, this was in error).

What errors were these?

1966's "The Tenth Planet" episode 4, featuring the first regeneration, was
kept in the archive along with the other three episodes of the story. It
only went missing after Blue Peter borrowed the tape to use the regeneration
clip.

And 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" episode 1 only went missing because
it was mistaken for 1968/9's "Invasion" episode 1. This was a moderately
easy mistake to make because, to keep the dinosaurs a secret, "Invasion of
the Dinosaurs" episode 1 was simply captioned as "Invasion" on screen. Ah
well. It was the very last (chronologically) episode to be junked, therefore
making series 12 (Tom Baker's first series) the earliest series not to
suffer from junkings.

At
least
one episode, 1965's "The Feast Of Steven", the only episode except for
2005's "Christmas Invasion" to premiere on Christmas Day, was never
transferred to film for overseas sale, and is therefore the most likely
candidate for "episode that will never be recovered".

Mind you from recollection the second series of Dad's Army was not
transferred either and yet two of the missing episodes turned up a few
years
ago.

Well, it's quite surprising just what can show up at times... "The Feast Of
Steven" was an episode of the 12 part epic "The Daleks' Masterplan". Because
it was so lengthy, only one copy (IIRC) of the 11 part version (sans "The
Feast Of Steven") was made... Yet amazingly enough, three episodes from the
serial have now been returned!


--
Ronnie
--
Have a great day...
....Have a Great Central day.
www.greatcentralrailway.com

In message
Derek ^ wrote:

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:56:13 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Even the later ones were never really that good. Recently watched a DVD
of Yes Minister and was appalled at how soft the pictures were.


Ahh but in what format(s) had the images languished all those years?

I don't know, but assumed they were off the quad masters. The progs were
actually shot using 4-tube EMI 2001 cameras which were quite sharp, sharper
than the next generation of tube cameras that did away with the Y tube.


One of the old timers I worked with said you could get better pictures
out of a quad VTR than went in. ;-)

FWIR quad VTRs could introduce a variety of scalloping/banding type
artifacts if they were badly adjusted or worn,

Banding was, IIRC, the most common problem due to poor tracking of one (or
more) of the heads.

but overall soft shouldn't happen. That sounds like it's been recorded on a
low band helical scan format at some stage.


If so, someone wants a kicking.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:

[snip]

I'm afraid the BBC's own paperwork is fairly conclusive, as well as
interviews with Verity Lambert, the show's first producer. Every episode of
Doctor Who was pre-recorded to (mostly to video tape) at least a week
before transmission.

Don't be afraid, I have just heard from Paul Kay, an ex-senior cameraman who
worked on many of the early series that they were indeed all recorded.

It was curious, however, how this progressed in technique over time. At
the very beginning, episodes were recorded on a one-at-a-time basis. The
recording was made "as live" (with as few breaks in recording as possible).

Hence the stories Id heard about having to shoot round daleks stalling in the
middle of the studio floor.


Certain scenes were pre-filmed, and fed in where required to smooth the
process (Though the very first episode, "An Unearthly Child", with what
appear to be complex pre-films for its flashbacks were actually achieved by
clever direction meaning the actors who were on one set only had to provide
voiceovers for the flashbacks), but actual edits were extremely rare in the
first series. This was due to the only way of editing being to physically
cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly Child" contains
one edit approximately half-way through.

You had to coat the recorded side of the tape with a special fluid to show up
the recording tracks and then cut carefully between the tracks using a
special jig. Programmes were charged 50 quid an edit, which was a fortune in
those days.



It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made it
possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely recall that
it started in the middle of the third series.

Not quite sure what you mean by thos, presumably you are referring to the
advent of electronic editing.

[snip]

Ironically, the first serial to use outside broadcast taping was Tom
Baker's first story, "Robot", again not because of the debut but because a
large amount of CSO ("blue screen", which was actually yellow for this
story) was required, and CSOing a video image onto film looks rather ropey
(see "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" the year before).

We'd been using Yellow CSO for Dr Who for quite a lot of the Pertwee series
as well. The reason being that the Tardis was blue! I used to do the
electronic special effects for the programme and we had one episode that was
an absolute nightmare. It involved Katy Manning as the Dr's assistant. Katy
is blond and was wearing a yellow dress, gold make-up, gold tights and yellow
boots. She'd walk out of the Tardis and vanish! We kept having to switch
between blue and yellow CSO which involved physically swapping electronic
modules in the studio equipment bay during recording breaks, something
against BBC engineering guidelines.

[snip]

As for the reason why the BBC chose to pre-record Who from the outset: who
knows? As has been pointed out, this was certainly not the norm at the
time. It may be that it was felt that with the requirement for some special
effects, a pre-record was necessary. It is hard to imagine how a
roll-back-and-mix effect (such as the TARDIS de/re-materializing) would be
achieved live.


That is the most probable reason.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html