"We hope to be able to run a pilot and have been trying to do this for a
while, but it is difficult to implement in places.
We are very keen to get it going and, if we run the pilot, it (Wandsworth)
will be the first area to get it. However, we have had it almost get
there and then fall in the past.

"We hope to run between Balham and Victoria - that will be the first
place, and then we can have a look at. It.
It is a terrific card, but the whole thing was brought in by TfL and we
have to get something agreed with them. (The hurdles) are between them
and also the equipment needed, and that is what we need to sort out."

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/Home/My...tra/oyster.htm

Ian

--

"Ian F." wrote in message
...
"We hope to be able to run a pilot and have been trying to do this for a
while, but it is difficult to implement in places.
We are very keen to get it going and, if we run the pilot, it (Wandsworth)
will be the first area to get it. However, we have had it almost get
there and then fall in the past.

"We hope to run between Balham and Victoria - that will be the first
place, and then we can have a look at. It.
It is a terrific card, but the whole thing was brought in by TfL and we
have to get something agreed with them. (The hurdles) are between them
and also the equipment needed, and that is what we need to sort out."

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/Home/My...tra/oyster.htm

Ian

--

Whats to bet that the 'hurdle' is also something to do with the fare
structure.....

Colin wrote:
"Ian F." wrote in message
...
"We hope to be able to run a pilot and have been trying to do this for a
while, but it is difficult to implement in places.
We are very keen to get it going and, if we run the pilot, it (Wandsworth)
will be the first area to get it. However, we have had it almost get
there and then fall in the past.

"We hope to run between Balham and Victoria - that will be the first
place, and then we can have a look at. It.
It is a terrific card, but the whole thing was brought in by TfL and we
have to get something agreed with them. (The hurdles) are between them
and also the equipment needed, and that is what we need to sort out."

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/Home/My...tra/oyster.htm

Ian

--

Whats to bet that the 'hurdle' is also something to do with the fare
structure.....

I wrote to First (new WAGN/Thameslink franchise holder) about Oyster
usage and was suprised at the comprehensive reply....

E-mail from FirstCapitalConnect:

We will be investing in two main types of ticket issuing machines as
soon as we take over the franchise:

Self Service Ticket Machines - cash and credit card enabled, and with
"ticket on departure" facility for the collection of remotely booked
tickets; and Mobile Ticket Issuing Machines to replace the life expired
Sportis
machines on the ex Thameslink network.

We will invest in 60 SSTMs and approximately 65 mobile TIS which will
improve the ticket buying facilities compared to the 20 year old
machines they replace or supplement.

What they do not do is sell or add value to Oystercards. We are well
aware of the demand for smartcard travel products, particularly Oyster,
in London. The two franchises we are replacing have introduced some
limited facilities to sell oystercards at a few stations, and
Thameslink accepts Oyster Pre-pay on its route between certain
stations. We will continue to
support these initials steps in retailing Oyster but we are planning to
wait until two major issues are clearer before committing to a
significant expansion of Oyster:

Firstly, there needs to be agreement between DfT (who fund TOC
franchises) and TfL on the type of smartcard technology to be used. DfT
mandates use of the ITSO protocol which is non-proprietorial and so
open to be used by many suppliers, whilst TfL is pushing ahead with
Oyster which is a proprietorial technology giving a monopoly position
to its supplier. Currently the two systems are not compatible and we
need DfT and TfL to conclude their negotiations on how far DfT is
prepared to allow Oyster to expand outside London. We also need
agreement between the two parties on how TOCs can offer Oyster products
in London and offer ITSO products outside London on the same platform,
which is the compromise they appear to be working to. We need to know
the outcome of this before making a potentially abortive investment
which could be overtaken by events; and secondly, there isn't an
accredited modern ticketing solution for selling rail products on
Oystercards at present. The limited way it is done at present utilises
APTIS machines which are being withdrawn from use across the rail
industry on account of their age and system limitations. They all will
be withdrawn by the end of 2006, but there isn't an agreed replacement
for retailing rail on Oyster at present. The London TOCs, including
First, are working with the supplier of Oyster on the
specification of the replacement system or systems and details on this
will become clear in the next few months.

There are other issues, particularly around revenue protection on a
largely "open" rail network as opposed to the "closed" (ie gated)
underground network, which cause significant concerns to TOCs which
also have to be resolved before a large scale expansion of smartcard
retailing can happen on National Rail. These are issues which are being
addressed at a senior level within the industry and we at First Capital
Connect intend to be fully involved in working through them to get to
an outcome which gives customers what they increasingly are asking for
in a manner which makes commercial sense to the train operators.

clockend wrote:
I wrote to First (new WAGN/Thameslink franchise holder) about Oyster
usage and was suprised at the comprehensive reply....
snip
We are well
aware of the demand for smartcard travel products, particularly Oyster,
in London. The two franchises we are replacing have introduced some
limited facilities to sell oystercards at a few stations, and
Thameslink accepts Oyster Pre-pay on its route between certain
stations.

Hopefully they're also aware that WAGN accepts Oyster Pre-pay between
Finsbury Park and KX/Moorgate...

We will continue to
support these initials steps in retailing Oyster but we are planning to
wait until two major issues are clearer before committing to a
significant expansion of Oyster:

Firstly, there needs to be agreement between DfT (who fund TOC
franchises) and TfL on the type of smartcard technology to be used. DfT
mandates use of the ITSO protocol which is non-proprietorial and so
open to be used by many suppliers, whilst TfL is pushing ahead with
Oyster which is a proprietorial technology giving a monopoly position
to its supplier.

Fair enough from First's perspective (although it was entirely within
the DfT's power to go down the sane route of designating Oyster as the
UK travel smartcard standard, and the stuff about monopoly positions
is... err... truth-economical)

Currently the two systems are not compatible and we
need DfT and TfL to conclude their negotiations on how far DfT is
prepared to allow Oyster to expand outside London. We also need
agreement between the two parties on how TOCs can offer Oyster products
in London and offer ITSO products outside London on the same platform,
which is the compromise they appear to be working to.

This is sensible.

We need to know
the outcome of this before making a potentially abortive investment
which could be overtaken by events; and secondly, there isn't an
accredited modern ticketing solution for selling rail products on
Oystercards at present. The limited way it is done at present utilises
APTIS machines which are being withdrawn from use across the rail
industry on account of their age and system limitations. They all will
be withdrawn by the end of 2006, but there isn't an agreed replacement
for retailing rail on Oyster at present.

No. Bad First. Keep at least one APTIS machine at every London station
for Oyster until the new Avantix module is ready! Yes, they're old and
they don't have a full fares list, but they still work and it's a
massive usability downgrade to remove them...

There are other issues, particularly around revenue protection on a
largely "open" rail network as opposed to the "closed" (ie gated)
underground network, which cause significant concerns to TOCs which
also have to be resolved before a large scale expansion of smartcard
retailing can happen on National Rail.

Don't see why: just treat non-touch-in-ers the same way you'd treat
anyone else without a ticket[*]. It works for LUL at Finsbury Park,
after all. Surely this is a smokescreen for the real issue about
fearing revenue loss from zonal fares?

Good to see them writing such a comprehensive and comprehensible
response, though.
[*] I mean 'PF them and prosecute repeat offenders', not 'ignore them
totally and never check tickets ever'. We're not dealing with
Silverlink here...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

There are other issues, particularly around revenue protection on a
largely "open" rail network as opposed to the "closed" (ie gated)
underground network, which cause significant concerns to TOCs which
also have to be resolved before a large scale expansion of smartcard
retailing can happen on National Rail.

Don't see why: just treat non-touch-in-ers the same way you'd treat
anyone else without a ticket[*]. It works for LUL at Finsbury Park,
after all. Surely this is a smokescreen for the real issue about
fearing revenue loss from zonal fares?

Good to see them writing such a comprehensive and comprehensible
response, though.

[*] I mean 'PF them and prosecute repeat offenders', not 'ignore them
totally and never check tickets ever'. We're not dealing with
Silverlink here...

One problem on National Rail if Oyster is extended much beyond the TfL
area is how to treat unresolved journeys ( caused by touching in
without touching out). At the moment you may be charged the maximum
TfL fare (usually that to Amersham / Chesham), but it would be harder
to pick a figure on National Rail.