More annoyingly when I went to Romford the other month the barriers
lacked
touch pads. How do Oyster season ticket users even get through these
gates normally? (I was lucky as the side gate was open.) And is Romford
the only place within the six zones which lacks readers on its barriers?

National Express refuse to install Oyster pads to their gates at this
station. They claim the barrier design is incompatible and the cost is
prohibitive. TfL say that NE have simply refused to let them do the work
even though it was offered free. So one of them is not telling the whole
truth. The man at the side gate has a hand held battery powered reader. I
used this station recently and there were more people queuing to have their
card read by this man than were able to use the barrier. When asked how
long this ridiculous situation will persist he just said "Nothing to do
with me, mate". To be fair, I can think of no worse job than standing there
all day pretending to be an Oyster pad (for both directions of flow at the
same time!) so I didn't press him futher but suggested he pass on my
complaint to his manager.

asdf wrote:
On 25 Mar 2006 13:37:09 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

The equivalent valid paper tickets would be my travelcard and an
extension ticket, which would not get me in trouble,

They would if you went out of zone without buying the extension
first (e.g. because your plans changed en route).

Having valid tickets for your whole journey but still risking being
penalty-fared is an artefact of Oyster.

I don't think you'd have valid tickets for your whole journey. Your
Travelcard is only valid in its zones, and you need a validated
Oyster card to use pre-pay (which you'd need to go outside them).

True. If you have some PAYG credit loaded on your Oyster, but haven't
touched in, it's no different from having money in your pocket and the
intention of paying at your destination. In a Penalty Fare area, you're
liable for a penalty in both cases.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:
asdf wrote:
On 25 Mar 2006 13:37:09 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

The equivalent valid paper tickets would be my travelcard and an
extension ticket, which would not get me in trouble,

They would if you went out of zone without buying the extension
first (e.g. because your plans changed en route).

Having valid tickets for your whole journey but still risking being
penalty-fared is an artefact of Oyster.

I don't think you'd have valid tickets for your whole journey. Your
Travelcard is only valid in its zones, and you need a validated
Oyster card to use pre-pay (which you'd need to go outside them).

True. If you have some PAYG credit loaded on your Oyster, but haven't
touched in, it's no different from having money in your pocket and the
intention of paying at your destination. In a Penalty Fare area, you're
liable for a penalty in both cases.

I don't think it's the same, because you have already paid TfL for your
prepay credit which can only be used for travel. Unlike cash in your
pocket, you'd have trouble spending it in the pub. People see prepay
credit as buying tickets in advance, and they are being sold the idea
that it's flexible and avoids having to plan.

I'm sure it's in the rules, but it's not obvious to the everyday
traveller that the gate which registers the fact that you've got a
valid travelcard at that station is "validating" your prepay, just in
case you go out of your zone.

Is there a time limit on this validation?

One might have touched in several times before this and not touched
out. For example, if you regularly travelled from Oxford Circus to
Canary Wharf and back with a zone 1 and 2 travelcard, all your
touchings in and out would be at Oxford Circus (to get through the
gates). If one day you got back in the DLR and headed for West Ruislip
via Bank, would the previous touching in at Oxford Circus be deemed to
be the start of your journey, or would it work out that you'd taken too
long?

On 26 Mar 2006 11:01:01 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

True. If you have some PAYG credit loaded on your Oyster, but haven't
touched in, it's no different from having money in your pocket and the
intention of paying at your destination. In a Penalty Fare area, you're
liable for a penalty in both cases.

I don't think it's the same, because you have already paid TfL for your
prepay credit which can only be used for travel.

It certainly *can* be used for travel, but won't be unless you
actually touch in and out.

So not touching in and out is still evading the fare. There are
stickers in Tube carriages saying you're liable for a Penalty Fare if
you don't have a valid ticket or "validated Oyster card".

I'm sure it's in the rules, but it's not obvious to the everyday
traveller that the gate which registers the fact that you've got a
valid travelcard at that station is "validating" your prepay, just in
case you go out of your zone.

Why not? How else would they validate it?

Is there a time limit on this validation?

2 hours has been mentioned here in the (not very recent) past.

One might have touched in several times before this and not touched
out. For example, if you regularly travelled from Oxford Circus to
Canary Wharf and back with a zone 1 and 2 travelcard, all your
touchings in and out would be at Oxford Circus (to get through the
gates).

Only if you weren't following the instruction to always touch in and
out.

If one day you got back in the DLR and headed for West Ruislip
via Bank, would the previous touching in at Oxford Circus be deemed to
be the start of your journey, or would it work out that you'd taken too
long?

If you exceeded the time limit for that journey, presumably you'd end
up with two unresolved journeys, one unfinished and the other
unstarted.

asdf wrote:
On 26 Mar 2006 11:01:01 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

True. If you have some PAYG credit loaded on your Oyster, but haven't
touched in, it's no different from having money in your pocket and the
intention of paying at your destination. In a Penalty Fare area, you're
liable for a penalty in both cases.

I don't think it's the same, because you have already paid TfL for your
prepay credit which can only be used for travel.

It certainly *can* be used for travel, but won't be unless you
actually touch in and out.

So not touching in and out is still evading the fare. There are
stickers in Tube carriages saying you're liable for a Penalty Fare if
you don't have a valid ticket or "validated Oyster card".

I'm sure it's in the rules, but it's not obvious to the everyday
traveller that the gate which registers the fact that you've got a
valid travelcard at that station is "validating" your prepay, just in
case you go out of your zone.

Why not? How else would they validate it?

Is there a time limit on this validation?

2 hours has been mentioned here in the (not very recent) past.

One might have touched in several times before this and not touched
out. For example, if you regularly travelled from Oxford Circus to
Canary Wharf and back with a zone 1 and 2 travelcard, all your
touchings in and out would be at Oxford Circus (to get through the
gates).

Only if you weren't following the instruction to always touch in and
out.


Is there an instruction to touch in and out with a travelcard for
journeys entirely within the zones that it covers? I've used the DLR
and bendibuses without ever touching in or out. I've also touched out
of gated NR stations without having touched in at an ungated terminus
like Waterloo. It's never a problem.

If one day you got back in the DLR and headed for West Ruislip
via Bank, would the previous touching in at Oxford Circus be deemed to
be the start of your journey, or would it work out that you'd taken too
long?

If you exceeded the time limit for that journey, presumably you'd end
up with two unresolved journeys, one unfinished and the other
unstarted.

Why the unfinished one? I've used the DLR and bendy buses with a valid
travelcard without ever touching in or out. I've also touched in at
gated NR stations without touching out an ungated terminus like
Waterloo (in fact gone all the way from a gated SWT station to an
ungated SET station and back a number of times, only ever touching at
the one end). It's never a problem when scanned with the handheld
things later. Why would it be when I've got a travelcard?

What if I didn't have any prepay, but just the travelcard? Touching in
and out would never relate to my credit being charged, because I
wouldn't have any.

The logic of the last point seems to be that by paying for prepay
credit, I am open to accusations of trying not to use it, which I would
not be open to if I didn't buy any credit at all.

I'm not asking for a defence of the indefensible. I'm just expressing
the fact that, whatever rule is explained to me, there is always a
niggling problem and/or inconsistency with these cursed cards that are
supposed to be improving flexibility.

It must be down to some fundamental flaw which I'm having trouble
putting my finger on.

MIG wrote:
asdf wrote:
On 26 Mar 2006 11:01:01 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

True. If you have some PAYG credit loaded on your Oyster, but haven't
touched in, it's no different from having money in your pocket and the
intention of paying at your destination. In a Penalty Fare area, you're
liable for a penalty in both cases.

I don't think it's the same, because you have already paid TfL for your
prepay credit which can only be used for travel.

It certainly *can* be used for travel, but won't be unless you
actually touch in and out.

So not touching in and out is still evading the fare. There are
stickers in Tube carriages saying you're liable for a Penalty Fare if
you don't have a valid ticket or "validated Oyster card".

I'm sure it's in the rules, but it's not obvious to the everyday
traveller that the gate which registers the fact that you've got a
valid travelcard at that station is "validating" your prepay, just in
case you go out of your zone.

Why not? How else would they validate it?

Is there a time limit on this validation?

2 hours has been mentioned here in the (not very recent) past.

One might have touched in several times before this and not touched
out. For example, if you regularly travelled from Oxford Circus to
Canary Wharf and back with a zone 1 and 2 travelcard, all your
touchings in and out would be at Oxford Circus (to get through the
gates).

Only if you weren't following the instruction to always touch in and
out.


Is there an instruction to touch in and out with a travelcard for
journeys entirely within the zones that it covers? I've used the DLR
and bendibuses without ever touching in or out. I've also touched out
of gated NR stations without having touched in at an ungated terminus
like Waterloo. It's never a problem.

If one day you got back in the DLR and headed for West Ruislip
via Bank, would the previous touching in at Oxford Circus be deemed to
be the start of your journey, or would it work out that you'd taken too
long?

If you exceeded the time limit for that journey, presumably you'd end
up with two unresolved journeys, one unfinished and the other
unstarted.

Why the unfinished one? I've used the DLR and bendy buses with a valid
travelcard without ever touching in or out. I've also touched in at
gated NR stations without touching out an ungated terminus like
Waterloo (in fact gone all the way from a gated SWT station to an
ungated SET station and back a number of times, only ever touching at
the one end). It's never a problem when scanned with the handheld
things later. Why would it be when I've got a travelcard?

What if I didn't have any prepay, but just the travelcard? Touching in
and out would never relate to my credit being charged, because I
wouldn't have any.

The logic of the last point seems to be that by paying for prepay
credit, I am open to accusations of trying not to use it, which I would
not be open to if I didn't buy any credit at all.

I'm not asking for a defence of the indefensible. I'm just expressing
the fact that, whatever rule is explained to me, there is always a
niggling problem and/or inconsistency with these cursed cards that are
supposed to be improving flexibility.

It must be down to some fundamental flaw which I'm having trouble
putting my finger on.


OR ... are we actually saying that a travelcard is actually somehow
UNVALIDATED by not touching in at the start of the journey, in case you
go beyond your zones, with or without prepay?

If so, this is a huge extra restriction on Oyster that wouldn't apply
to paper tickets. (But I don't think it is the case, from both
instinct and experience.)

On 27 Mar 2006 00:19:03 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

One might have touched in several times before this and not touched
out. For example, if you regularly travelled from Oxford Circus to
Canary Wharf and back with a zone 1 and 2 travelcard, all your
touchings in and out would be at Oxford Circus (to get through the
gates).

Only if you weren't following the instruction to always touch in and
out.

Is there an instruction to touch in and out with a travelcard for
journeys entirely within the zones that it covers? I've used the DLR
and bendibuses without ever touching in or out. I've also touched out
of gated NR stations without having touched in at an ungated terminus
like Waterloo. It's never a problem.

I thought all users were always told to touch in and out, but it seems
I was wrong - it appears to depend where you look.

In the "Your guide to Oyster" leaflet, under "how to use Oyster", it
tells you to always touch in and out on Tube/DLR/NR. No distinction is
made between having a Travelcard or using pre-pay.

IIRC the recorded announcements that are made every so often on Tube
platforms say the same thing.

On the Oystercard website, it says you must always touch in and out on
Tube/NR, but, under DLR, it says "You only need to touch in and touch
out when using Oyster to pay as you go".

Buried in an answer to a question in the "Ask Oyster" section of the
website, is the following: "If using an Oyster card loaded with a
season Travelcard there may be times when you will not be able to
touch your Oyster card to a reader, for instance if you are travelling
to or from a National Rail station at which no Oyster readers have
been installed. This is acceptable as long as you are not travelling
outside of the zones of the Travelcard on your Oyster card."

The leaflet that comes in the wallet with an Oyster card tells you to
always touch in/out on the Tube, but: "When using DLR and your period
ticket covers the journey you are making, there is no need to touch
your Oyster card on the reader. When you intend to use Pre Pay for any
part of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
the start and finish of your journey."

The standalone readers at ungated entry/exit points to/from the tube
network have notices that only tell pre-pay users to touch there. I
can't remember what it says on the DLR readers.

All of the relevant sources above tell you to always touch in on
buses, with no mention that it's any different for bendies.

If one day you got back in the DLR and headed for West Ruislip
via Bank, would the previous touching in at Oxford Circus be deemed to
be the start of your journey, or would it work out that you'd taken too
long?

If you exceeded the time limit for that journey, presumably you'd end
up with two unresolved journeys, one unfinished and the other
unstarted.

Why the unfinished one?

All journeys you make are recorded, whether they're covered by your
Travelcard or not.

I've used the DLR and bendy buses with a valid
travelcard without ever touching in or out. I've also touched in at
gated NR stations without touching out an ungated terminus like
Waterloo (in fact gone all the way from a gated SWT station to an
ungated SET station and back a number of times, only ever touching at
the one end). It's never a problem when scanned with the handheld
things later. Why would it be when I've got a travelcard?

It's not a problem if it's covered by your Travelcard.

What if I didn't have any prepay, but just the travelcard? Touching in
and out would never relate to my credit being charged, because I
wouldn't have any.

It's impossible to have a "prepay-less" card. Even if your prepay
balance is £0.00, you can still use prepay, and your balance will go
negative.

The logic of the last point seems to be that by paying for prepay
credit, I am open to accusations of trying not to use it, which I would
not be open to if I didn't buy any credit at all.

But then you'd be even worse off, surely? (Assuming you're travelling
either without any other ticket, or with a Travelcard but outside its
zones.)

I'm not asking for a defence of the indefensible. I'm just expressing
the fact that, whatever rule is explained to me, there is always a
niggling problem and/or inconsistency with these cursed cards that are
supposed to be improving flexibility.

It must be down to some fundamental flaw which I'm having trouble
putting my finger on.

If you work it out, do let us know ;-)

asdf wrote in message ...

I thought all users were always told to touch in and out, but it seems
I was wrong - it appears to depend where you look.

In the "Your guide to Oyster" leaflet, under "how to use Oyster", it
tells you to always touch in and out on Tube/DLR/NR. No distinction is
made between having a Travelcard or using pre-pay.

True - but the phrase used in the simple instructions (I haven't got the
leaflet to hand) is "the start/end of your journey", which brings us to the
problem that the traveller mentality, reinforced by both TfL & NR
advertising, interprets this differently from the Oyster technology.

IIRC the recorded announcements that are made every so often on Tube
platforms say the same thing.

I've not heard one for quite a while - and I can't recall ever hearing one
at Stratford, one of the stations where this can be a serious problem.
They're more concerned with telling us smoking is banned (sometimes so
concerned they override the announcement as to which stations the eastbound
trains stop at, which is really helpful for customers at the eastern end of
the platform where there's no visual information for a lot of stations).

On the Oystercard website, it says you must always touch in and out on
Tube/NR, but, under DLR, it says "You only need to touch in and touch
out when using Oyster to pay as you go".

Again it comes back to what constitutes "using Oyster to pay as you go" -
from the traveller's perspective one is only using it from the zone
boundary, not the start of the journey. (And also what happens to "no need
to plan"?)

Buried in an answer to a question in the "Ask Oyster" section of the
website, is the following: "If using an Oyster card loaded with a
season Travelcard there may be times when you will not be able to
touch your Oyster card to a reader, for instance if you are travelling
to or from a National Rail station at which no Oyster readers have
been installed. This is acceptable as long as you are not travelling
outside of the zones of the Travelcard on your Oyster card."

Which leaves open the problem of extensions on services where PrePay is
accepted for part of it (e.g. travelling beyond Stratford into Liverpool
Street or taking the train and tube on a journey).

Also from this phrasing I assume that touching in/out at Ilford *is*
sufficient for any extension travel in PrePay areas - is that so?

The leaflet that comes in the wallet with an Oyster card

Looking in my current wallet (issued last October when I received my student
photo/Oyster in one card) there isn't a leaflet there and never has been.
There is one from September 2005 in the old card and wallet, though it's for
the student card and primarily focused on season tickets, telling people to
look elsewhere for PrePay info (which again is unhelpful if the user is
starting from a National Rail station with no info on PrePay there). And
there's some interesting info in the section "Oyster Pre Pay on National
Rail services":

"If you hold a season ticket which does not cover all or part of one of the
above services [National Rail accepting PrePay] and you wish to use Oyster
Pre Pay as a ticket extension on the participating service, you will need to
break your journey where your season ticket cease to be valid. At that
station you need to touch your card on the reader and then continue your
journey.
If your train does not stop at that station or you do not wish to break your
journey, you will need to buy an adult rate paper Ticket Extension ticket
which must be used to enter/exit through the ticket gates where the ticket
is valid. You must not use Oyster Pre Pay in these cases."

This whole thing rather goes against the instructions on the other side
under "If your Discount rate Travelcard does not cover the full journey you
wish to make" where it says:

"If you travel beyond your Travelcard zones, an adult rate ticket extension
fare is automatically deducted when you touch your Oyster photocard on a
card reader as you exist the station."

There's nothing explicit about having to touch in at the outset of the
journey and "automatically deducted" is in no way the same thing as "you
will need to break your journey where your season ticket cease to be valid."

And the requirement to break the journey or plan in advance again runs
counter to Oyster advertising about "no need to plan in advance" and the
system automatically deducting the relevant fare(s).

Plus paper extension tickets are very difficult to obtain, especially at
National Rail stations which often don't staff the ticket office out of peak
hours (when is a user is most likely to want an extension) or offer them on
the machines. Once more we find small print details going against everything
Oyster is supposed to be doing (i.e. getting sales out of the ticket halls).

What if I didn't have any prepay, but just the travelcard? Touching in
and out would never relate to my credit being charged, because I
wouldn't have any.

It's impossible to have a "prepay-less" card. Even if your prepay
balance is £0.00, you can still use prepay, and your balance will go
negative.


I thought I was confused, but now I'm not sure ...

I've never yet put any prepay on my Oyster, and I can't remember what
personal details I gave, although I didn't prove identity or anything.
It would seem odd if I could now run up a negative balance, but maybe I
should try.

I think the thing that generally bugs me is that while unstaffed or
ungated stations, or particularly determined evaders, exist, it is
possible for people to travel beyond their zones or without tickets,
and they may occasionally risk getting "caught".

But all the discussion has implied that someone who does pay TfL a load
of credit and makes an attempt to get it deducted by touching out at an
unstaffed destination may get clobbered by the Oyster system due to
something they didn't do earlier, while someone who just wanders out of
the station with no ticket or prepay credit won't.

Why the extra burden of accusation and punishment for people who pay in
advance and make an attempt to debit their balance? This is perhaps
the nub of the kernel of key to the problem I am having with all this.
It's what I previously meant by "an artefact of Oyster".

On 27 Mar 2006 09:45:49 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

What if I didn't have any prepay, but just the travelcard? Touching in
and out would never relate to my credit being charged, because I
wouldn't have any.

It's impossible to have a "prepay-less" card. Even if your prepay
balance is £0.00, you can still use prepay, and your balance will go
negative.

I thought I was confused, but now I'm not sure ...

I've never yet put any prepay on my Oyster, and I can't remember what
personal details I gave, although I didn't prove identity or anything.
It would seem odd if I could now run up a negative balance, but maybe I
should try.

I neglected to add that while your balance is negative, you can't use
your Travelcard (although if it expired anyway, I suppose you could
throw the card away at no loss).

I think the thing that generally bugs me is that while unstaffed or
ungated stations, or particularly determined evaders, exist, it is
possible for people to travel beyond their zones or without tickets,
and they may occasionally risk getting "caught".

But all the discussion has implied that someone who does pay TfL a load
of credit and makes an attempt to get it deducted by touching out at an
unstaffed destination may get clobbered by the Oyster system due to
something they didn't do earlier, while someone who just wanders out of
the station with no ticket or prepay credit won't.

If you end up with an unresolved journey from touching out without
having touched in (even if it's the result of your own error), you can
get it fixed at a Tube ticket office (if it's the most recent journey
on the card) or by phoning the Oyster helpline.

Of course, people who neither touch in nor out won't be charged for
their journey (how could they?), but they run the same risk of getting
caught as those who fail to buy tickets under a paper-ticketing
regime.

Why the extra burden of accusation and punishment for people who pay in
advance and make an attempt to debit their balance? This is perhaps
the nub of the kernel of key to the problem I am having with all this.
It's what I previously meant by "an artefact of Oyster".

As I tried to explain before, if you were allowed to travel outside
your zones without having touched in, the system would be wide open to
exploitation by fare dodgers (for journeys where at least one end
doesn't have barriers).