My flatmate used my annual travelcard (paper ticket) on the tube recently and got inspected by the mob that board the tubes. As he didn't have a photocard & they decided it wasn't his ticket - my ticket was confiscated and he is waiting to hear about a fine for fraudulent use! They said they'd send my ticket back to Southern Trains (the issuers) and I'd have to contact them about getting it back!

Southern have now finally said they've passed my details onto the Independent Fares and Penalty Services (still don't have the ticket back yet) and it's likely I'll get a fine too - even though I didn't know he had used it that day! I can't get hold of these people except by writing to them and we're both left in the dark and moreover they have my ticket still!

My question is I doubt I can do anything about the imminent fines for both of us - but does anyone have a clue how much we'll get fined? How long does it take? Usual processes etc?

Any help and advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks.

BBK.

"BBK" wrote in message
...

My flatmate used my annual travelcard (paper ticket) on the tube
recently and got inspected by the mob that board the tubes. As he
didn't have a photocard & they decided it wasn't his ticket - my ticket
was confiscated and he is waiting to hear about a fine for fraudulent
use! They said they'd send my ticket back to Southern Trains (the
issuers) and I'd have to contact them about getting it back!

Southern have now finally said they've passed my details onto the
Independent Fares and Penalty Services (still don't have the ticket
back yet) and it's likely I'll get a fine too - even though I didn't
know he had used it that day! I can't get hold of these people except
by writing to them and we're both left in the dark and moreover they
have my ticket still!

My question is I doubt I can do anything about the imminent fines for

Of course you can.

The fine will be a criminal charge,
If you stand up and say the the guy took the ticket
without permission you will get off and they will
throw the book at him.

tim

tim (back at home) wrote:
"BBK" wrote in message
...

My flatmate used my annual travelcard (paper ticket) on the tube
recently and got inspected by the mob that board the tubes. As he
didn't have a photocard & they decided it wasn't his ticket - my ticket
was confiscated and he is waiting to hear about a fine for fraudulent
use! They said they'd send my ticket back to Southern Trains (the
issuers) and I'd have to contact them about getting it back!

Southern have now finally said they've passed my details onto the
Independent Fares and Penalty Services (still don't have the ticket
back yet) and it's likely I'll get a fine too - even though I didn't
know he had used it that day! I can't get hold of these people except
by writing to them and we're both left in the dark and moreover they
have my ticket still!

My question is I doubt I can do anything about the imminent fines for


Of course you can.

The fine will be a criminal charge,
If you stand up and say the the guy took the ticket
without permission you will get off and they will
throw the book at him.

Obviously don't do that if it's not true.

CPS charging practice is he

http://cps.gov.uk/legal/section9/cha...l#_Toc44579898

It says the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s5 is used to prosecute fare
evaders. But surely that does not apply to you since you were not
actually travelling on the railway. And it would probably be a private
prosecution, not by the CPS.

If you gave permission for your card to be used, it looks like you have
breached TFL and railway bylaws 21(2) and 22(2):

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/company/bylaws.asp
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ays_504364.pdf

If your only loss from this is your annual ticket you should probably
consider yourself lucky.

If you want more advice, uk.legal.moderated/uk.railway might be a better
place. Or a solicitor.
--
Michael Hoffman

"Michael Hoffman" wrote in message
...
tim (back at home) wrote:
"BBK" wrote in message
...

My flatmate used my annual travelcard (paper ticket) on the tube
recently and got inspected by the mob that board the tubes. As he
didn't have a photocard & they decided it wasn't his ticket - my ticket
was confiscated and he is waiting to hear about a fine for fraudulent
use! They said they'd send my ticket back to Southern Trains (the
issuers) and I'd have to contact them about getting it back!

Southern have now finally said they've passed my details onto the
Independent Fares and Penalty Services (still don't have the ticket
back yet) and it's likely I'll get a fine too - even though I didn't
know he had used it that day! I can't get hold of these people except
by writing to them and we're both left in the dark and moreover they
have my ticket still!

My question is I doubt I can do anything about the imminent fines for


Of course you can.

The fine will be a criminal charge,
If you stand up and say the the guy took the ticket
without permission you will get off and they will
throw the book at him.

Obviously don't do that if it's not true.

CPS charging practice is he

http://cps.gov.uk/legal/section9/cha...l#_Toc44579898

It says the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s5 is used to prosecute fare
evaders. But surely that does not apply to you since you were not actually
travelling on the railway. And it would probably be a private prosecution,
not by the CPS.

If you gave permission for your card to be used, it looks like you have
breached TFL and railway bylaws 21(2) and 22(2):

Given that a season ticket with no accompaning
photocard is worthless for travel, why would anyone
let someone else borrow it, it has zero value to that
other person?

tim





http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/company/bylaws.asp
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ays_504364.pdf

If your only loss from this is your annual ticket you should probably
consider yourself lucky.

If you want more advice, uk.legal.moderated/uk.railway might be a better
place. Or a solicitor.
--
Michael Hoffman

tim (back at home) wrote:
"Michael Hoffman" wrote in message
...
tim (back at home) wrote:
"BBK" wrote in message
...

My flatmate used my annual travelcard (paper ticket) on the tube
recently and got inspected by the mob that board the tubes. As he
didn't have a photocard & they decided it wasn't his ticket - my ticket
was confiscated and he is waiting to hear about a fine for fraudulent
use! They said they'd send my ticket back to Southern Trains (the
issuers) and I'd have to contact them about getting it back!

Southern have now finally said they've passed my details onto the
Independent Fares and Penalty Services (still don't have the ticket
back yet) and it's likely I'll get a fine too - even though I didn't
know he had used it that day! I can't get hold of these people except
by writing to them and we're both left in the dark and moreover they
have my ticket still!

My question is I doubt I can do anything about the imminent fines for


Of course you can.

The fine will be a criminal charge,
If you stand up and say the the guy took the ticket
without permission you will get off and they will
throw the book at him.

Obviously don't do that if it's not true.

CPS charging practice is he

http://cps.gov.uk/legal/section9/cha...l#_Toc44579898

It says the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s5 is used to prosecute fare
evaders. But surely that does not apply to you since you were not actually
travelling on the railway. And it would probably be a private prosecution,
not by the CPS.

If you gave permission for your card to be used, it looks like you have
breached TFL and railway bylaws 21(2) and 22(2):

Given that a season ticket with no accompaning
photocard is worthless for travel, why would anyone
let someone else borrow it, it has zero value to that
other person?


I can't make the CPS link work, but in any case, a season gets you
through the barriers without a photocard, and you don't usually get
inspectors at barriered stations. Maybe the borrower hoped not to be
inspected on the train.

tim (back at home) wrote:
"BBK" wrote in message
...

My flatmate used my annual travelcard (paper ticket) on the tube
recently and got inspected by the mob that board the tubes. As he
didn't have a photocard & they decided it wasn't his ticket - my ticket
was confiscated and he is waiting to hear about a fine for fraudulent
use! They said they'd send my ticket back to Southern Trains (the
issuers) and I'd have to contact them about getting it back!

Southern have now finally said they've passed my details onto the
Independent Fares and Penalty Services (still don't have the ticket
back yet) and it's likely I'll get a fine too - even though I didn't
know he had used it that day! I can't get hold of these people except
by writing to them and we're both left in the dark and moreover they
have my ticket still!

My question is I doubt I can do anything about the imminent fines for

[snip]

Given that a season ticket with no accompaning
photocard is worthless for travel, why would anyone
let someone else borrow it, it has zero value to that
other person?


No idea but I note that the original poster did not say he had done so.
If he had given permission then he is guilty of something (conspiracy
to evade fairs or whatever) but as written it is consistent with his
flatmate simply taking it without his permission.

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.

Given that a season ticket with no accompaning
photocard is worthless for travel, why would anyone
let someone else borrow it, it has zero value to that
other person?
[/i][/color]

No idea but I note that the original poster did not say he had done so.
If he had given permission then he is guilty of something (conspiracy
to evade fairs or whatever) but as written it is consistent with his
flatmate simply taking it without his permission.

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.[/quote]


So there is no chance the IPFAS will just issue a straight fine with a wrap on the knuckles? I was hoping that it would be a simple fine and I'd get my ticket back.....maybe I'm deluded!

My annual season ticket is Brighton to London at £3500, so it would be a pretty steep fine if they decide to keep it!

"BBK" wrote in message
...

Given that a season ticket with no accompaning
photocard is worthless for travel, why would anyone
let someone else borrow it, it has zero value to that
other person?


No idea but I note that the original poster did not say he had done so.

If he had given permission then he is guilty of something (conspiracy

to evade fairs or whatever) but as written it is consistent with his
flatmate simply taking it without his permission.

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.


So there is no chance the IPFAS will just issue a straight fine with a
wrap on the knuckles? I was hoping that it would be a simple fine and I'd
get my ticket back.....maybe I'm deluded![/i][/color]

I have no idea if they will try this but if they did
it would be unenforcable in law and you could
sue for your money back. Of course they may
take the risk that you don't.

My annual season ticket is Brighton to London at £3500, so it would be a
pretty steep fine if they decide to keep it!

And they can't do this either.

If they suspect you of a criminal act they have to
prosecute you to extract a penalty.

They do have the option of deciding, without reason,
that they do not want you a customer, but in this
case they will have to give you your money back
(arguably on a strict pro-rata basis, not the
remaining value basis that they normally refund
season tickets)

tim

My flatmate used my annual travelcard (paper ticket) on the
tube recently and got inspected by the mob that board the
tubes. As he didn't have a photocard & they decided it
wasn't his ticket - my ticket was confiscated and he is waiting
to hear about a fine for fraudulent use! They said they'd
send my ticket back to Southern Trains (the issuers) and I'd
have to contact them about getting it back!

Your flatmate appears to have committed fare evasion, contrary to the
Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s.5(3)(a). If you gave him the pass or
gave him permission to use it you will have breached Railway Byelaws
21(2) (transferring a ticket with intent that someone else use it) and
22(2) (transferring a ticket with intent that someone else avoid
payment). Your flatmate has also breached Byelaw 21(3), but it would be
unusual to proceed against him for this.

The offence your friend has committed is usually dealt with at
magistrates' court, and can lead to a fine of up to £2500 and/or three
months in prison. It is a recordable offence, so if convicted your
friend can be required by the police to attend a police station to have
his fingerprints and DNA taken - this will be entered on the national
DNA database and kept for future reference.

If the case is going to magistrates' court then the pass will be an
exhibit, and so cannot be returned to you until the case is over. Since
the pass is the property of the railway, they may well decide to
withdraw it anyway.

Unless your flatmate has dropped you in it or you have admitted
something, it would be unlikely that you would be prosecuted, but they
might try and obviously I don't know the details of the case so don't
bet on it. If you a prosecuted, expect a fine of anything up to £1000
at magistrates court.

You should really think yourself lucky. If your flatmate had been
stopped by the police in possession of something worth several hundred
pounds that they suspected belonged to someone else, it is quite likely
that he would have been arrested for the theft of the pass. Assuming
that he intended to give the pass back to you before it expired then he
would probably not be prosecuted, but he would have been arrested,
taken to a police station, interviewed and have his
DNA/fingerprints/photograph taken and retained. This is a very common
job for the British Transport Police.

Not getting prosecuted for this type of offence is really easy -- buy a
valid ticket for the whole of your journey on the railway and comply
with the terms and conditions set out in the byelaws. When they say
tickets are not transferable they really mean it!


Pete

wrote in message
ups.com...


Not getting prosecuted for this type of offence is really easy -- buy a
valid ticket for the whole of your journey on the railway and comply
with the terms and conditions set out in the byelaws. When they say
tickets are not transferable they really mean it!

How does buying a ticket stop the OP being prosecuted because
his friend 'borrowed' his pass.

No-one here thinks that the friend deserves anything less
than he gets. It's the, potentially, entirely innocent ST holder
we are helping

tim