"TKD" wrote in news:1147497659.88957.0
@doris.uk.clara.net:


My staff pass never works the gates at London Bridge (Southeastern
side) despite being valid on Thameslink / FCC services between
there
and West Hampstead. I have to carry the T&Cs document with me to
prove to gateline staff that TfL staff passes are indeed valid
there!


These gates should also let PAYG customers through, though they
still
have to validate in or out on the validators on platforms 5/6.
However this hasn't worked for a few months.

Thameslink from London Bridge using PAYG is a disaster. The gateline
staff are convinced it isn't valid and the gates don't let you
through. I'm glad to be back on an annual ticket again just to be
able
to pass through there without incident.



You mean.... it *is* valid?

On the Thameslink route it is valid as far as Kentish Town and also at
Elephant & Castle.





Well this is shocking news.

I asked - having already capped my PAYG - and was told that I couldn't
use it. I was going to from London Bridge to Farringdon and there were
problems on the Northern Line. I was made to pay the fare, which really
****ed me off. Had a doctor's appointment so couldn't really mess around
on other tube lines, and I saw that the train was arriving shortly.

I've lost the ticket now so can't get a refund - didn't know I could. I
wonder how much money is being made on the sly here... I mean, it sounds
very strange that in spite of this being a common problem, the gateline
staff are convinced (or pretend to be convinced) that PAYG is not valid.
I mean, they must have been told that the station they work at can take
PAYG. I don't buy it.

Do these people get commission for issuing penalty fares like the
Lambeth traffic wardens do? There must be a reason for the gate staff
continuing to try and get more money off people when they have already a
valid PAYG capped travelcard used up on their card.

This sounds really quite fraudulent, doesn't it? Sounds like a racket. I
mean, posters go up in Johnston font quite quickly if eg service was
****e the previous day or the tubes were hot or whatever, so how come
there isn't a poster up saying PAYG IS VALID AT THIS STATION so that the
gate staff have no excuse?

Clearly the operators are quite happy getting this extra little cashcow
immorally.

"David Biddulph" wrote in
:

"Tristán White" wrote in message
. 109.145...
OK. question. I can get (I think) a CDR from Stratford to Hackney
Central and back, correct?

But can I not get a CDR from Stratford to Silvertown and back?

On the same line?

Because I can use Oyster PAYG on the latter, but not on the former.

You can't use Oyster PAYG from Stratford to Silvertown, only to
Canning Town
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...l-fares-2006.p
df#page=12

[But you can instead go to London City Airport on the DLR.]



OK. If I can get a CDR from Stratford to Hackney Central and back, can I
not get a CDR from Stratford to Canning Town and back because PAYG can be
used on the latter?

On Sat, 13 May 2006 15:28:44 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote:

"David Biddulph" wrote in
:

"Tristán White" wrote in message
. 109.145...
OK. question. I can get (I think) a CDR from Stratford to Hackney
Central and back, correct?

But can I not get a CDR from Stratford to Silvertown and back?

On the same line?

Because I can use Oyster PAYG on the latter, but not on the former.

You can't use Oyster PAYG from Stratford to Silvertown, only to
Canning Town
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...l-fares-2006.p
df#page=12

[But you can instead go to London City Airport on the DLR.]



OK. If I can get a CDR from Stratford to Hackney Central and back, can I
not get a CDR from Stratford to Canning Town and back because PAYG can be
used on the latter?

The simplest way to solve this is to ask the National Rail website. You
can get a CDR for the latter journey - £2.10 but only on Silverlink.

Standard day return is £3.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 13 May 2006 15:26:53 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote:

"TKD" wrote in news:1147497659.88957.0
:

On the Thameslink route it is valid as far as Kentish Town and also at
Elephant & Castle.

Well this is shocking news.

Hardly.

I asked - having already capped my PAYG - and was told that I couldn't
use it. I was going to from London Bridge to Farringdon and there were
problems on the Northern Line. I was made to pay the fare, which really
****ed me off. Had a doctor's appointment so couldn't really mess around
on other tube lines, and I saw that the train was arriving shortly.

Is every one of your journeys by public transport surrounded by crisis?

I've lost the ticket now so can't get a refund - didn't know I could. I
wonder how much money is being made on the sly here... I mean, it sounds
very strange that in spite of this being a common problem, the gateline
staff are convinced (or pretend to be convinced) that PAYG is not valid.
I mean, they must have been told that the station they work at can take
PAYG. I don't buy it.

The staff have probably never been told. I doubt many of them have had
anything resembling intensive training on ticketing and validities.
Doesn't make it right but it's probably the reality.

Do these people get commission for issuing penalty fares like the
Lambeth traffic wardens do? There must be a reason for the gate staff
continuing to try and get more money off people when they have already a
valid PAYG capped travelcard used up on their card.

It would be a very poor scam given that few people make the trip anyway
and even fewer on PAYG. They are unlikely to become millionaires.

This sounds really quite fraudulent, doesn't it? Sounds like a racket. I
mean, posters go up in Johnston font quite quickly if eg service was
****e the previous day or the tubes were hot or whatever, so how come
there isn't a poster up saying PAYG IS VALID AT THIS STATION so that the
gate staff have no excuse?

The difference here is that you are comparing LU practice with the TOCs.
They are not the same and their objectives are quite different. Your
suggested notice would be hugely misleading as it implies that PAYG is
valid from all destinations to London Bridge.

A simple and clear notice explaining that PAYG is valid only on
Thameslink (or First Capital Connect) services between London Bridge and
Kentish Town inclusive might be more appropriate.

Clearly the operators are quite happy getting this extra little cashcow
immorally.

I doubt they know. As I have said elsewhere the only way this stuff gets
solved is if people officially complain. Complain to the MD of FCC and
South Eastern, demand your money back. Complain to Oyster, Complain to
London Travel Watch.

The other point seems to be that the equipment that is there is not
properly explained or looked after. That should be identified too.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

OK. If I can get a CDR from Stratford to Hackney Central and back, can
I not get a CDR from Stratford to Canning Town and back because PAYG
can be used on the latter?

The simplest way to solve this is to ask the National Rail website.
You can get a CDR for the latter journey - £2.10 but only on
Silverlink.

Standard day return is £3.



So this proves that a CDR and PAYG *can* coexist. :-)

£2.10 CDR on Silverlink, Stratford to Canning Town and back.
or PAYG.

If both "fares" can coexist on the same line, then I don't see why the
eventual introduction of PAYG on all London NR stations would necessarily
mean that CDR would *HAVE* to disappear on these lines.

On Sun, 14 May 2006 02:20:43 +0100, Barry Salter wrote:
If both "fares" can coexist on the same line, then I don't see why the
eventual introduction of PAYG on all London NR stations would necessarily
mean that CDR would *HAVE* to disappear on these lines.

Because you'd still be in the same situation that we're in now, whereby
some journeys will still be cheaper by purchasing a paper ticket (which,
of course, won't count towards your Oyster cap).

I don't see why that's a huge problem. If you weren't sure how many
journeys you were going to make in a day (i.e. whether you were going
to reach a cap), you might have to choose between a paper
single/return and the daily cap, and if you get it wrong possibly pay
more than you might have done, but that's no worse than how it's been
for decades (and still is in many parts of the country).

If CDRs were withdrawn then you'd be even worse off, as you wouldn't
even have the choice of getting one and possibly saving money.

Except it would be magnified, because you could then hit the cap on
other journeys, and your Oyster would be valid over the section you've
got a paper ticket for, which'd be a right mess from a charging point of
view.

Err, why?

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 May 2006 02:20:43 +0100, Barry Salter wrote:
If both "fares" can coexist on the same line, then I don't see why the
eventual introduction of PAYG on all London NR stations would necessarily
mean that CDR would *HAVE* to disappear on these lines.

Because you'd still be in the same situation that we're in now, whereby
some journeys will still be cheaper by purchasing a paper ticket (which,
of course, won't count towards your Oyster cap).

I don't see why that's a huge problem. If you weren't sure how many
journeys you were going to make in a day (i.e. whether you were going
to reach a cap), you might have to choose between a paper
single/return and the daily cap, and if you get it wrong possibly pay
more than you might have done, but that's no worse than how it's been
for decades (and still is in many parts of the country).

If CDRs were withdrawn then you'd be even worse off, as you wouldn't
even have the choice of getting one and possibly saving money.

This is probably what will happen.

Remember it was once possible to get cheaper 'returns'
on the tube, and then the abolished them.

tim


Except it would be magnified, because you could then hit the cap on
other journeys, and your Oyster would be valid over the section you've
got a paper ticket for, which'd be a right mess from a charging point of
view.

Err, why?

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

At the "State of London" debate today I went to the session on transport
with Peter Hendy (TfL Commissioner). One of the audience raised the example
of travelling from Clapham to Waterloo - from Clapham Junction a CDR with a
Young Person's Railcard is about £1.60 wheras on Oyster PAYG Clapham Common
to Waterloo and back is £4.00.

Hendy said he was surprised that there are any places where National Rail
fares are cheaper but declined to give explicit assurances that fares will
not be pushed up if/when PAYG is rolled out on National Rail.

And what about Ealing Broadway to Paddington? That's about £2.70 CDR.

Colin McKenzie

On Sun, 14 May 2006 17:28:56 +0100, Colin McKenzie wrote:

At the "State of London" debate today I went to the session on transport
with Peter Hendy (TfL Commissioner). One of the audience raised the example
of travelling from Clapham to Waterloo - from Clapham Junction a CDR with a
Young Person's Railcard is about £1.60 wheras on Oyster PAYG Clapham Common
to Waterloo and back is £4.00.

Hendy said he was surprised that there are any places where National Rail
fares are cheaper but declined to give explicit assurances that fares will
not be pushed up if/when PAYG is rolled out on National Rail.

And what about Ealing Broadway to Paddington? That's about £2.70 CDR.

If Mr Hendy is "surprised" then he must really have no idea. There
must be many many such examples - it's easy enough to find them even
if you only look at routes where PAYG is already valid and even if you
disregard Railcard discounts.

e.g.
Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston: CDR £5.30; PAYG £5.80
Harrow & Wealdstone to Queens Park: CDR £3.40; PAYG £3.60
Harrow & Wealdstone to Stonebridge Park: CDR £3.00; PAYG £3.60
Willesden Junction to Euston: CDR £4.00; PAYG £4.90
Wembley Central to Queens Park: CDR £2.50; PAYG £3.60
West Ruislip to Marylebone: CDR £4.50; PAYG £5.80
South Ruislip to Marylebone: CDR £4.50; PAYG £4.90
Kentish Town to Kings Cross Thameslink: CDR £3.20; PAYG £4.00
Kentish Town to London Bridge: CDR £3.20; PAYG £4.00
Seven Sisters to Liverpool Street: CDR £3.60; PAYG £4.90
Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street: CDR £3.60; PAYG £4.90
Walthamstow Central to Liverpool Street: CDR £4.00; PAYG £4.90
Stratford to Liverpool Street: CDR £3.60; PAYG £4.90
West Ham to Fenchurch Street: CDR £3.10; PAYG £4.90
Limehouse to Fenchurch Street: CDR £3.00; PAYG £4.00
Upminster to Barking: CDR £2.50; PAYG £3.60
Barking to Limehouse: CDR £3.00; PAYG £3.60

In some of these cases, the CDR remains cheaper even if one or both of
the outward/return journeys are during evenings/weekends when the PAYG
fares are discounted.

asdf wrote:

If Mr Hendy is "surprised" then he must really have no idea. There
must be many many such examples - it's easy enough to find them even
if you only look at routes where PAYG is already valid and even if you
disregard Railcard discounts.

e.g.
Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston: CDR £5.30; PAYG £5.80
[snip]

In some of these cases, the CDR remains cheaper even if one or both of
the outward/return journeys are during evenings/weekends when the PAYG
fares are discounted.

"No need to plan"?!

The whole thing gets messier and messier. Trying to explain to students
whether they benefit more from the TfL season discount or buying daily with
a YPR gets even more messy.