wrote:
Before everyone gets a bit too carried away about how rubbish other
systems are compared to the tube you might like to be interested in
my experiences of the metro in Kiev, Ukraine which I had the pleasure
to use for a while this month.

A one month card which covers the whole system costs 25 Gryvna which is roughly
2 pounds 80 pence. This is for a service where the trains run every 2 mins
30 seconds the whole day.

Of course, your average Ukrainian earns a lot less than your average
Londoner. 45 times less, apparently, according to:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
(Average weekly earnings of £556 for Londoners, 2005)
http://manila.djh.dk/Ukraine/stories/storyReader$5
(Average *monthly* earnings of US$100 for Ukrainians, 2000)

That's about £53 per month versus £2409 per month. Based on this, a
£2.80 pass to a Ukrainian is equivalent (ignoring the difference in the
year of measurement) to an £127 ticket for a Londoner.

The Kiev metro is nowhere near as extensive as the London Underground -
it has 59km of route and 45 stations (compared to 408km and 275
stations). Zone 1 would be comparable; a Zones 1&2 monthly travelcard
costs £85.30. Make of that what you will.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Fri, 19 May 2006 Dave Arquati wrote:

Of course, your average Ukrainian earns a lot less than your average
Londoner. 45 times less, apparently

The average Londoner may earn 45 times more than the average Ukrainian.
45 times less than this is an awful lot of negative income.
--
Thoss

Dave Arquati wrote:
http://manila.djh.dk/Ukraine/stories/storyReader$5
(Average *monthly* earnings of US$100 for Ukrainians, 2000)

Well for a start that report is over 6 years out of date and secondly
while that might possibly be true averaged as a whole over the country
there is a lot of money floating about in Kiev , and I'm not just talking
about the Mafia. Besides which , if everything cost 1/45th of that in
Britain then your argument may hold water , but lots of things , eg mobile
phones , radios, white goods, some foods, cost the same or more than they
do in britain.

The Kiev metro is nowhere near as extensive as the London Underground -
it has 59km of route and 45 stations (compared to 408km and 275
stations). Zone 1 would be comparable; a Zones 1&2 monthly travelcard
costs £85.30. Make of that what you will.

Yeah , this argument is frequently trotted out as if size has any bearing on
the running of a system. You might as well say that HSBC can't be expected
to be run as well as Northern Rock because its so much bigger. If you
have the staff & resources in place , clued up management and workers who
treat their jobs as a priviledge , not a right , then it would all work
smoothly. You don't, so it doesn't.

And if you don't think thats a valid point, go check out the Moscow Metro.
Its the busiest in the world and it runs just as well as the one in Kiev.

B2003

wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
http://manila.djh.dk/Ukraine/stories/storyReader$5
(Average *monthly* earnings of US$100 for Ukrainians, 2000)

Well for a start that report is over 6 years out of date and secondly
while that might possibly be true averaged as a whole over the country
there is a lot of money floating about in Kiev , and I'm not just talking
about the Mafia. Besides which , if everything cost 1/45th of that in
Britain then your argument may hold water , but lots of things , eg mobile
phones , radios, white goods, some foods, cost the same or more than they
do in britain.

I accept that the report is out of date. Deeper digging (link below from
the IMF) has uncovered a figure for August 2004 of 604.2UAH, which is
about £64 at current exchange rates (in the absence of an exchange rate
for 2004). This is still 11.5% of London monthly wages (£2409).

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2005/cr0521.pdf

Although I accept that averages cover up fluctuations across the
country, the following ILO document (p46 in Acrobat Reader) suggests
that Kiev workers have a lower wage than the Ukrainian average. It is
out of date, but it shows that fluctuations go both ways.

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/pr...cs/ukraine.pdf

Finally, the key issue is that a Kiev ticket price of £2.80 is about
4.4% of monthly wages, whilst a London ticket for Zones 1&2 of £85.30 is
about 3.5% of monthly wages. Those percentages can be compared, unlike
the nominal values. If some goods cost the same or more than they do in
Britain, that means that Ukrainians have *even less* to spend on
transport. For example, if either buys a £30 radio, the Ukrainian has
£34 left to spend that month (of which transport would be 8%) whilst the
Londoner has £2379 left (of which transport would still be around 3.5%).

The Kiev metro is nowhere near as extensive as the London Underground -
it has 59km of route and 45 stations (compared to 408km and 275
stations). Zone 1 would be comparable; a Zones 1&2 monthly travelcard
costs £85.30. Make of that what you will.

Yeah , this argument is frequently trotted out as if size has any bearing on
the running of a system. You might as well say that HSBC can't be expected
to be run as well as Northern Rock because its so much bigger. If you
have the staff & resources in place , clued up management and workers who
treat their jobs as a priviledge , not a right , then it would all work
smoothly. You don't, so it doesn't.

I wasn't attempting to compare the running of the systems. I was only
comparing the ticket prices, which seem nearly equivalent. The reason I
"trotted out" the size of the system was that a travelcard on the Kiev
metro can only realistically be compared to a Zones 1&2 travelcard in
London because the London system is so much larger overall (thus making
a comparison with a Z1-6 travelcard a fallacy).

And if you don't think thats a valid point, go check out the Moscow Metro.
Its the busiest in the world and it runs just as well as the one in Kiev.

I am making no judgment about performance. I'd be very glad to check out
the Moscow Metro if someone will buy me a ticket to Moscow...

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
Although I accept that averages cover up fluctuations across the
country, the following ILO document (p46 in Acrobat Reader) suggests
that Kiev workers have a lower wage than the Ukrainian average. It is

Thats contrary to my experience. Even if that were true , well lets
multiply the monthly card by 10. That still only makes it 28 quid.
Still 1/5th that of london.

metro can only realistically be compared to a Zones 1&2 travelcard in
London because the London system is so much larger overall (thus making
a comparison with a Z1-6 travelcard a fallacy).

So what if its larger? One of the metro lines goes a good 6 or 7 miles
out of the city centre. That would make it at least the same as zone 4
and if you take into account the fact that kiev is somewhat smaller
than london it would make it the equivalent of zone 6.

B2003

wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
Although I accept that averages cover up fluctuations across the
country, the following ILO document (p46 in Acrobat Reader) suggests
that Kiev workers have a lower wage than the Ukrainian average. It is

Thats contrary to my experience. Even if that were true , well lets
multiply the monthly card by 10. That still only makes it 28 quid.
Still 1/5th that of london.

It's very difficult to argue with less-than-anecdotal evidence and
figures plucked out of thin air.

metro can only realistically be compared to a Zones 1&2 travelcard in
London because the London system is so much larger overall (thus making
a comparison with a Z1-6 travelcard a fallacy).

So what if its larger? One of the metro lines goes a good 6 or 7 miles
out of the city centre. That would make it at least the same as zone 4
and if you take into account the fact that kiev is somewhat smaller
than london it would make it the equivalent of zone 6.

The simple fact is that a Zone 1-6 travelcard enables you to travel to
more places than the entire Kiev Metro does, placing them somewhat
beyond comparison. Apples and oranges. £2.80 lets me travel round
Brighton all day by bus; £3 lets me travel round London all day by bus.
Does that mean Brighton is better value for money?

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
It's very difficult to argue with less-than-anecdotal evidence and
figures plucked out of thin air.

Given that my fiances family live and work in Kiev I'm not entirely
sure which bit you think is less than anecdotal.

beyond comparison. Apples and oranges. £2.80 lets me travel round
Brighton all day by bus; £3 lets me travel round London all day by bus.
Does that mean Brighton is better value for money?

So if LU only had the central line for example , you'd be quite happy for
people to have monthly cards from epping that cost them a few quid? Since
obviously the only criteria for you is how many lines there are.

Incidentaly , the Moscow metro as I've said before is the busiest in the
world. I remember a monthly card being about 450 roubles. Thats 9 quid
at current exchange rates. I'm not quite sure where that leaves your
argument but holed below the water line would be my thoughts. Unless you're
going to insist thats a teensy ickle system compared to london too.

B2003

wrote:
Incidentaly , the Moscow metro as I've said before is the busiest in the
world. I remember a monthly card being about 450 roubles. Thats 9 quid
at current exchange rates. I'm not quite sure where that leaves your
argument but holed below the water line would be my thoughts. Unless you're
going to insist thats a teensy ickle system compared to london too.


a) compare Moscow workers' wages to London workers' wages (NB mean wage
doesn't cut it - Moscow's plutocrats drive around in Mercedes so don't
use the metro)

b) compare historical and cultural traditions in the ex-USSR to those
in the UK

c) compare yourself to someone with a clue.

Feel free to reflect on these comparisons and answer. Or preferably
not.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org