I used my Oyster card to enter the tube the other evening by mistake. I
had a national rail paper ticket for the journey I was making but in my
hurry forgot to use it. I exited at the other end using the paper ticket
but was unable to clear the unresolved journey because the ticket office
at East Putney was closed and I couldn't find a member of staff to talk
to. As I was being met by my mother in a waiting car I didn't have time
to check for the staff more thorough I assumed I could sort it out the
next morning.

However when I came back the next morning the machine appeared to show
the journey as completed, certainly no unresolved journey. As the ticket
office was again closed the member of staff on the barrier suggested I
sort it at the other end. That seemed logical as it was St James's Park,
LU HQ.

However, the ticket office there confirmed that the journey showed as
resolved despite my lack of touching out (or other Oyster use) since
entering the system the previous evening. They could only refer me to
the helpline who did sort me out, thankfully.

So how did the journey get resolved?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

I used my Oyster card to enter the tube the other evening by mistake. I
had a national rail paper ticket for the journey I was making but in my
hurry forgot to use it. I exited at the other end using the paper ticket
but was unable to clear the unresolved journey because the ticket office
at East Putney was closed and I couldn't find a member of staff to talk
to. As I was being met by my mother in a waiting car I didn't have time
to check for the staff more thorough I assumed I could sort it out the
next morning.

However when I came back the next morning the machine appeared to show
the journey as completed, certainly no unresolved journey. As the ticket
office was again closed the member of staff on the barrier suggested I
sort it at the other end. That seemed logical as it was St James's Park,
LU HQ.

However, the ticket office there confirmed that the journey showed as
resolved despite my lack of touching out (or other Oyster use) since
entering the system the previous evening. They could only refer me to
the helpline who did sort me out, thankfully.

So how did the journey get resolved?


I can't help answer that, but I've got another question which maybe
someone can answer at the same time.

If you bleep in (somewhere ungated like the DLR or a bendy bus) and it
tells you that you haven't got enough money, does it assume that you
are starting a journey or not? Given the possibility of negative
credit, maybe it would.

So if, having got the message, you then got a paper ticket (because it
was the DLR, say, and you had no time to find a shop) and went where
you were going, would you be left with an unresolved journey and
negative credit, or assumed to have travelled without a ticket or what?

In article .com,
(MIG) wrote:

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

I used my Oyster card to enter the tube the other evening by
mistake. I had a national rail paper ticket for the journey I was
making but in my hurry forgot to use it. I exited at the other end
using the paper ticket but was unable to clear the unresolved
journey because the ticket office at East Putney was closed and I
couldn't find a member of staff to talk to. As I was being met by my
mother in a waiting car I didn't have time to check for the staff
more thorough I assumed I could sort it out the next morning.

However when I came back the next morning the machine appeared to
show the journey as completed, certainly no unresolved journey. As
the ticket office was again closed the member of staff on the barrier
suggested I sort it at the other end. That seemed logical as it was
St James's Park, LU HQ.

However, the ticket office there confirmed that the journey showed
as resolved despite my lack of touching out (or other Oyster use)
since entering the system the previous evening. They could only
refer me to the helpline who did sort me out, thankfully.

So how did the journey get resolved?

I can't help answer that, but I've got another question which maybe
someone can answer at the same time.

If you bleep in (somewhere ungated like the DLR or a bendy bus) and it
tells you that you haven't got enough money, does it assume that you
are starting a journey or not? Given the possibility of negative
credit, maybe it would.

So if, having got the message, you then got a paper ticket (because it
was the DLR, say, and you had no time to find a shop) and went where
you were going, would you be left with an unresolved journey and
negative credit, or assumed to have travelled without a ticket or
what?

I don't think so. I thought I could go into the red and thereby avoid
the queues at the ludicrously inadequate temporary booking office at
King's Cross and top up at the other end. However it stopped me at the
gate without changing the balance so I had to waste time getting Oyster
credit in a most laborious manner.

Why don't the machines allow you to specify how much credit you want to
add and e.g. give change from cash? To add £6 to my Oyster to cover my
journeys on Tuesday/Wednesday I had to do a £5 credit card transaction
and then put a £1 coin in. If I'd have put a £10 note in, the smallest I
had on me, it would have insisted on adding it all the Oyster. In the
end I didn't even need the whole £6 so I now have some credit I probably
won't use for months.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sat, 27 May 2006 18:46 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

I used my Oyster card to enter the tube the other evening by mistake. I
had a national rail paper ticket for the journey I was making but in my
hurry forgot to use it. I exited at the other end using the paper ticket
but was unable to clear the unresolved journey because the ticket office
at East Putney was closed and I couldn't find a member of staff to talk
to. As I was being met by my mother in a waiting car I didn't have time
to check for the staff more thorough I assumed I could sort it out the
next morning.

However when I came back the next morning the machine appeared to show
the journey as completed, certainly no unresolved journey. As the ticket
office was again closed the member of staff on the barrier suggested I
sort it at the other end. That seemed logical as it was St James's Park,
LU HQ.

However, the ticket office there confirmed that the journey showed as
resolved despite my lack of touching out (or other Oyster use) since
entering the system the previous evening. They could only refer me to
the helpline who did sort me out, thankfully.

So how did the journey get resolved?

Where did you enter the system?

I ask because special arrangements were in place at stations adjacent to
Sloane Square because of the Chelsea Flower Show. Everyone was directed
to an exit without any validation equipment and there were posters
telling people not to worry as their seemingly incomplete journeys would
be rectified upon re-entry. UTS has a concept called aliasing which can
be used in an emergency where the station gates and ticket machines can
be two places at the same time (!). It is possible that the pre-pay
functionality on the entry gate may have done something clever with your
card.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 27 May 2006 12:06:42 -0700, "MIG"
wrote:

I can't help answer that, but I've got another question which maybe
someone can answer at the same time.

If you bleep in (somewhere ungated like the DLR or a bendy bus) and it
tells you that you haven't got enough money, does it assume that you
are starting a journey or not? Given the possibility of negative
credit, maybe it would.

As you say you are entering the DLR or the bus then the system will
assume an entry is being made - subject to what is on the card for your
last journey.

The bus validation will be simple enough - it will just look to see if
you have a positive value of cash or are within zone / date (depending
on ticket type). If these factors are fine then a transaction will be
completed that either deducts cash for pre-pay or simply records the
basic journey details for the Travelcard.

On DLR the validation checks will be similar. If you had an entry record
for your last trip and it was within journey time and date parameters it
is likely the validator would assume you were exiting rather than
entering. This would either deduct or add back the appropriate cash for
Pre-Pay or just add an exit transaction for a Travelcard.

If your last trip was outside of time parameters and all other factors
were OK the validator would assume a start of a trip. If the cash
balance was sufficient for the entry deduction then a valid entry
transaction would be written to the card. This would then be used by the
exiting validation equipment wherever you got off to deduct the due
value from Pre-Pay (either for a whole journey or a part journey if
travelling as an extension to a Travelcard ticket on the card).

If you were not in zone or had insufficient funds then your card should
be rejected and no transaction would be written to the card.

The above is my understanding of how the logic should work.

So if, having got the message, you then got a paper ticket (because it
was the DLR, say, and you had no time to find a shop) and went where
you were going, would you be left with an unresolved journey and
negative credit, or assumed to have travelled without a ticket or what?

If you buy the paper ticket you are not travelling without a ticket. If
you are unable to top up your card for a Pre-Pay trip or are out of zone
then your card would not have an entry transaction and you would be
travelling without valid authority on the network. I do not see how you
could have an unresolved journey from the beginning of your trip - it
would only be unresolved if you attempt to exit DLR or LUL at the end of
a trip where you decided to enter the system out of zone or without
sufficient funds for the Pre-Pay deduction on entry.

I may have missed the point you are trying to get clarified so if there
is a real life example - as I'm sure there is - then that may well help.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2006 18:46 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

I used my Oyster card to enter the tube the other evening by
mistake. I had a national rail paper ticket for the journey I was
making but in my hurry forgot to use it. I exited at the other end
using the paper ticket but was unable to clear the unresolved
journey because the ticket office at East Putney was closed and I
couldn't find a member of staff to talk to. As I was being met by my
mother in a waiting car I didn't have time to check for the staff
more thorough I assumed I could sort it out the next morning.

However when I came back the next morning the machine appeared to
show the journey as completed, certainly no unresolved journey. As
the ticket office was again closed the member of staff on the
barrier suggested I sort it at the other end. That seemed logical as
it was St James's Park, LU HQ.

However, the ticket office there confirmed that the journey showed
as resolved despite my lack of touching out (or other Oyster use)
since entering the system the previous evening. They could only
refer me to the helpline who did sort me out, thankfully.

So how did the journey get resolved?

Where did you enter the system?

I ask because special arrangements were in place at stations adjacent
to Sloane Square because of the Chelsea Flower Show. Everyone was
directed to an exit without any validation equipment and there were
posters telling people not to worry as their seemingly incomplete
journeys would be rectified upon re-entry. UTS has a concept called
aliasing which can be used in an emergency where the station gates and
ticket machines can be two places at the same time (!). It is
possible that the pre-pay functionality on the entry gate may have
done something clever with your card.

Nowhere near there. I entered at Marble Arch. My previous journey was
from King's Cross to Marble Arch.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 27 May 2006 12:06:42 -0700, "MIG"
wrote:

I can't help answer that, but I've got another question which maybe
someone can answer at the same time.

If you bleep in (somewhere ungated like the DLR or a bendy bus) and it
tells you that you haven't got enough money, does it assume that you
are starting a journey or not? Given the possibility of negative
credit, maybe it would.

As you say you are entering the DLR or the bus then the system will
assume an entry is being made - subject to what is on the card for your
last journey.

The bus validation will be simple enough - it will just look to see if
you have a positive value of cash or are within zone / date (depending
on ticket type). If these factors are fine then a transaction will be
completed that either deducts cash for pre-pay or simply records the
basic journey details for the Travelcard.

On DLR the validation checks will be similar. If you had an entry record
for your last trip and it was within journey time and date parameters it
is likely the validator would assume you were exiting rather than
entering. This would either deduct or add back the appropriate cash for
Pre-Pay or just add an exit transaction for a Travelcard.

If your last trip was outside of time parameters and all other factors
were OK the validator would assume a start of a trip. If the cash
balance was sufficient for the entry deduction then a valid entry
transaction would be written to the card. This would then be used by the
exiting validation equipment wherever you got off to deduct the due
value from Pre-Pay (either for a whole journey or a part journey if
travelling as an extension to a Travelcard ticket on the card).

If you were not in zone or had insufficient funds then your card should
be rejected and no transaction would be written to the card.

The above is my understanding of how the logic should work.

So if, having got the message, you then got a paper ticket (because it
was the DLR, say, and you had no time to find a shop) and went where
you were going, would you be left with an unresolved journey and
negative credit, or assumed to have travelled without a ticket or what?

If you buy the paper ticket you are not travelling without a ticket. If
you are unable to top up your card for a Pre-Pay trip or are out of zone
then your card would not have an entry transaction and you would be
travelling without valid authority on the network. I do not see how you
could have an unresolved journey from the beginning of your trip - it
would only be unresolved if you attempt to exit DLR or LUL at the end of
a trip where you decided to enter the system out of zone or without
sufficient funds for the Pre-Pay deduction on entry.

I may have missed the point you are trying to get clarified so if there
is a real life example - as I'm sure there is - then that may well help.



It's really to do with the possibility of negative balance that has
been referred to elsewhere. If you had insufficient funds entering a
gated station, but the gate opened, you'd know that you were incurring
a negative balance that you had to top up later. But at an ungated
station, you wouldn't get such a cue.

Then again, I don't know if the former ever happens. Maybe it doesn't.
Or maybe the negative balance is only applied if you do bleep out
within a certain time (even then, you could be returning, having got a
paper ticket the first time).

But maybe the whole negative balance idea is a myth. It was just that
rumours of it made me wonder if I had been assumed to have made a
journey on an occasion where I bleeped in (got warning) and then got a
paper ticket.

On 28 May 2006 02:56:35 -0700, "MIG"
wrote:

[snip everything already written]

It's really to do with the possibility of negative balance that has
been referred to elsewhere. If you had insufficient funds entering a
gated station, but the gate opened, you'd know that you were incurring
a negative balance that you had to top up later. But at an ungated
station, you wouldn't get such a cue.

If you had insufficient funds you would not get in. If your balance was
negative on entry you would not get in.

At a validator you should get an appropriate message, red warning light
and an invalid ticket "bleep". If you then proceeded to travel you
would not have a valid entry transaction on your card.

Then again, I don't know if the former ever happens. Maybe it doesn't.

I understood that the LU and DLR systems impose a deduction on entry for
pre-pay trips and you must have sufficient funds for that transaction or
else entry is not permitted. If a validating device rejects your card it
does not create any transaction on the card. The fee on entry was
originally going to be the maximum fare but that was changed to a much
lower value - I have seen nothing to suggest this has been changed. I
would say that the publicity surrounding this part of the pre-pay
concept is practically non existent.

Or maybe the negative balance is only applied if you do bleep out
within a certain time (even then, you could be returning, having got a
paper ticket the first time).

Negative balance can only happen on exit from rail systems as this is
when a balancing transaction is made to the card to cover the cost
incurred for the trip being made - the adjustment may be zero if your
journey cost is the same fare as deducted on entry; otherwise it would
be some other value up to the total fare due.

I understand that for bus trips only a positive cash balance is required
and the full fare is deducted on entry. Obviously there is not a
graduated system of fares by distance and no exit checking so this is
the only way the bus system can work. You can therefore have 10p on
your card and make a 80p charge thus leaving your card with a negative
balance of 70p.

But maybe the whole negative balance idea is a myth. It was just that
rumours of it made me wonder if I had been assumed to have made a
journey on an occasion where I bleeped in (got warning) and then got a
paper ticket.

Negative balance is not a myth and neither is having a positive yet
insufficient value of funds for an entry transaction (on the tube or
DLR).

Any clearer (assuming I'm right!) ?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 28 May 2006 02:56:35 -0700, "MIG"
wrote:

[snip everything already written]

It's really to do with the possibility of negative balance that has
been referred to elsewhere. If you had insufficient funds entering a
gated station, but the gate opened, you'd know that you were incurring
a negative balance that you had to top up later. But at an ungated
station, you wouldn't get such a cue.

If you had insufficient funds you would not get in. If your balance was
negative on entry you would not get in.

At a validator you should get an appropriate message, red warning light
and an invalid ticket "bleep". If you then proceeded to travel you
would not have a valid entry transaction on your card.

Then again, I don't know if the former ever happens. Maybe it doesn't.

I understood that the LU and DLR systems impose a deduction on entry for
pre-pay trips and you must have sufficient funds for that transaction or
else entry is not permitted. If a validating device rejects your card it
does not create any transaction on the card. The fee on entry was
originally going to be the maximum fare but that was changed to a much
lower value - I have seen nothing to suggest this has been changed. I
would say that the publicity surrounding this part of the pre-pay
concept is practically non existent.

Or maybe the negative balance is only applied if you do bleep out
within a certain time (even then, you could be returning, having got a
paper ticket the first time).

Negative balance can only happen on exit from rail systems as this is
when a balancing transaction is made to the card to cover the cost
incurred for the trip being made - the adjustment may be zero if your
journey cost is the same fare as deducted on entry; otherwise it would
be some other value up to the total fare due.

I understand that for bus trips only a positive cash balance is required
and the full fare is deducted on entry. Obviously there is not a
graduated system of fares by distance and no exit checking so this is
the only way the bus system can work. You can therefore have 10p on
your card and make a 80p charge thus leaving your card with a negative
balance of 70p.

But maybe the whole negative balance idea is a myth. It was just that
rumours of it made me wonder if I had been assumed to have made a
journey on an occasion where I bleeped in (got warning) and then got a
paper ticket.

Negative balance is not a myth and neither is having a positive yet
insufficient value of funds for an entry transaction (on the tube or
DLR).

Any clearer (assuming I'm right!) ?



I think so, and expanding a bit: if you haven't got enough funds for
the cheapest journey you could make, you get a warning and don't start
the journey. Negative balance is only possible if, having entered the
system, you then exit somewhere that implies a journey that would have
cost more than the minimum (and more than the balance), ie negative
balance is incurred only where it's a fait accompli after the journey
and you could legitimately have got in in the first place.

Unless it's a bus, when you start and finish the journey at the same
bleep. In which case, you mustn't see a warning and hop off again, and
the driver (if it's a straight bus) won't charge you.

On 28 May 2006 03:36:29 -0700, "MIG"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

Any clearer (assuming I'm right!) ?

I think so, and expanding a bit: if you haven't got enough funds for
the cheapest journey you could make, you get a warning and don't start
the journey. Negative balance is only possible if, having entered the
system, you then exit somewhere that implies a journey that would have
cost more than the minimum (and more than the balance), ie negative
balance is incurred only where it's a fait accompli after the journey
and you could legitimately have got in in the first place.

Yes - which if you think about it is the only sensible way to do it. To
allow people to enter on negative balances and thus become stuck at exit
(or at interchanges like Kings Cross) would be unacceptable. If people
were issued penalty fares as a result then there would be a justifiable
outcry from people that TfL had designed a system that allowed
"fraudulent" travel and thus increased the risk of penalty fares being
levied.

Unless it's a bus, when you start and finish the journey at the same
bleep. In which case, you mustn't see a warning and hop off again, and
the driver (if it's a straight bus) won't charge you.

I would prefer to say that you pay for the whole trip on entry to the
bus. If you get a warning light it is either because your card has no
money on it or is negative or the card is unreadable for some other
reason. In such a case you either cough up the cash (if outside the
cashless zone) to the driver, get off and add cash to your card to
entitle you to discounted fares, get off and get the card replaced (if
defective) or buy a ticket at a roadside machine (if in the cashless
zone).

The attempted use of cards with zero value on buses seems to be the
latest scam by a wide range of people - who then feign outrage at being
told to pay or get off by the driver. The other variant of this is a
young person trying this and when the driver tries to chuck them off
they play the "I'm young and what do the rules say" trick. I saw this on
a 34 the other evening - the driver still chucked the lad off the bus as
he was perfectly able to look after himself and was not entitled to free
travel.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!