I live in the TfL wasteland of extreme south-east London, in Crayford.
I currently drive to work a couple of miles away most days,
occasionally walking (it's a horrible walk which involves going up a
huge hill but I like to make an effort from time to time!).

My journey to work could easily be done by bus, but knowing how much
cheaper it is to run my tiny car (about 40-50p/day, all told) than to
get the bus (£1.80/day) never makes this idea seem all that appealing.

Recently though I was thinking that it would do me good to go by bus
every day as the walks to and from the bus stops would add up to more
than the occasional walking at the moment, and I could read the paper
on the bus, which would be more enjoyable than driving - plus there are
the obvious environmental benefits of taking my car off the rush-hour
roads.

Anyway, what would really suit my needs would be a Zone 6 only (or
Zones 5-6) bus pass, but it seems this doesn't exist - it's all of
London or nothing for the buses, meaning an outlay of £540, which
could well be more than I'd spend on the buses in a year anyway!

I therefore began wondering about an alternative plan, which would be
to get a Zones 5-6 Travelcard, for £560, i.e. basically the same as a
bus pass, but valid on other transport methods, which around here just
means National Rail. (I seem to recall reading on this group recently
that even a limited travelcard like this would be valid on all buses
anywhere in London, so this really does seem to be a case of paying
just £20 more for access to Zones 5-6 of trains.)

The advantage of this would be that on the numerous occasions each year
when I currently buy an off-peak one-day all zones travelcard, I could
presumably just buy a Zones 1-4 one instead, saving me, at current
prices, 90p a time. (I assume that 5-6 plus 1-4 equals 1-6, doesn't
it?)

I also assume that this would save me something on a National Rail
Return to London, e.g. I guess I would only have to pay for Sidcup
(which is the last station I'd pass through in Zone 5 - or would it be
New Eltham, the first station I would reach in Zone 4?) to London
return rather than Crayford to London. This looks like it would cost
£4.00 rather than £5.10, so that would give even more of a saving per
trip.

So I guess what I'm really asking here is:
- Does all this sound like an idea that would work and would be
worthwhile?
- Could it cause hassle, for instance when buying tickets for zones 1-4
or Sidcup to London while at a Zone 6 NR station?
- Are there any technical issues related to having a Zones 5-6
travelcard on an Oyster when my local station can't handle Oyster very
well (they can't issue them for instance)? I think a nearby newsagent
can do most Oyster things, but I wouldn't want to go there, for
instance, if I was just going for a train ride to London, since the
newsagent is a bit of a walk past the station from my home.
- Does anyone have any other comments about all this, or better ideas?

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you can offer,

Paul

On 1 Jun 2006 04:53:00 -0700, wrote:

Anyway, what would really suit my needs would be a Zone 6 only (or
Zones 5-6) bus pass, but it seems this doesn't exist - it's all of
London or nothing for the buses, meaning an outlay of £540, which
could well be more than I'd spend on the buses in a year anyway!

Indeed. There are many cases nowadays where it's cheaper to use
pre-pay each day rather than get a season.

I therefore began wondering about an alternative plan, which would be
to get a Zones 5-6 Travelcard, for £560, i.e. basically the same as a
bus pass, but valid on other transport methods, which around here just
means National Rail. (I seem to recall reading on this group recently
that even a limited travelcard like this would be valid on all buses
anywhere in London, so this really does seem to be a case of paying
just £20 more for access to Zones 5-6 of trains.)

That's quite right.

The advantage of this would be that on the numerous occasions each year
when I currently buy an off-peak one-day all zones travelcard, I could
presumably just buy a Zones 1-4 one instead, saving me, at current
prices, 90p a time. (I assume that 5-6 plus 1-4 equals 1-6, doesn't
it?)

Yes. However, your annual Travelcard would come with a Gold Card. This
is a discount card which, amongst other things, lets you buy a Z1-6
ODTC for £4.80, saving a further 60p compared to getting an
undiscounted Z1-4 ODTC.

I also assume that this would save me something on a National Rail
Return to London, e.g. I guess I would only have to pay for Sidcup
(which is the last station I'd pass through in Zone 5 - or would it be
New Eltham, the first station I would reach in Zone 4?)

No, the former...

to London
return rather than Crayford to London. This looks like it would cost
£4.00 rather than £5.10, so that would give even more of a saving per
trip.

It would actually cost £2.65, as your Gold Card would give you a 1/3
discount (after 10am Mon-Fri and all weekend).

So I guess what I'm really asking here is:
- Does all this sound like an idea that would work and would be
worthwhile?

Yes, though you'd have to make over £100 worth of savings on rail and
additional bus journeys during the year for it to become worthwhile.

- Could it cause hassle, for instance when buying tickets for zones 1-4
or Sidcup to London while at a Zone 6 NR station?

It's most unlikely you'd be able to buy them from a ticket machine at
the Z6 station, but you should have no problem getting them from the
ticket office (*if* it's open).

If the ticket machines are of the older sort, they might not even sell
Gold Card discounted ODTCs.

- Are there any technical issues related to having a Zones 5-6
travelcard on an Oyster when my local station can't handle Oyster very
well (they can't issue them for instance)?

Nope, except that you'll have to go to a station that does sell them
to buy it (and if it stops working or you lose it, etc).

- Does anyone have any other comments about all this, or better ideas?

Compared to driving a car, the walking part is fine, but (depending
how frequent/reliable they are and how impatient you are) you may get
fed up having to wait around for buses every time. Perhaps you should
try it for a month or so (using pre-pay) before splashing out on an
annual season.

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 02:14:29 +0100, asdf wrote:

your annual Travelcard would come with a Gold Card. This
is a discount card which, amongst other things, lets you buy a Z1-6
ODTC for £4.80, saving a further 60p compared to getting an
undiscounted Z1-4 ODTC.

Ooh, that's very good - I had no idea you got a Gold Card just for a
two-zone annual travelcard, I had always (completely without basis)
assumed that the Gold Card was given only to buyers of the all zones
annual travelcard.

Having greatly missed my Young Person's Railcard since finally
surrendering it on the day before my 27th birthday last year (I read the
terms and conditions very carefully when I was about to turn 26!), I
would certainly like to have the benefits of a Gold Card.

That said...

There are many cases nowadays where it's cheaper to use
pre-pay each day rather than get a season.
....
you'd have to make over £100 worth of savings on rail and
additional bus journeys during the year for it to become worthwhile.
....
Compared to driving a car, the walking part is fine, but (depending
how frequent/reliable they are and how impatient you are) you may get
fed up having to wait around for buses every time. Perhaps you should
try it for a month or so (using pre-pay) before splashing out on an
annual season.

.... I think you're right - I should give it a try on Oyster Pre-Pay for
a while. I'm fortunate that the bus route to work (the 96, if anyone's
making notes) has always seemed very reliable and frequent on the
occasions when I have used it in the past, but then the Northern Line
seems quite good to me as a casual user so I think the plan to try it
out as an actual commuter for a bit definitely sounds good!

Anyway, thanks very much for all your comments - very useful feedback.

Paul

In message of Fri, 2 Jun
2006 18:29:11 in uk.transport.london, Paul Speller
writes

Paul,
Thanks for an interesting question following good research.
I was surprised you can do the work journey for 50p by car. I assume
that is the marginal cost. i.e. it ignores depreciation, car tax,
insurance, etc.

Can I suggest you try cycling? Borrow a bike for a week if you don't own
one. The main problem is that you will be sweaty on arriving at work.

Journey times are reliable.

Motor-cycling also offers reliable journeys and we need organ donors!
--
Walter Briscoe

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Walter Briscoe wrote:

Can I suggest you try cycling? Borrow a bike for a week if you don't own
one. The main problem is that you will be sweaty on arriving at work.

Probably not. You only get sweaty if you ride like a mad fiend; you can do
a decent clip without breaking a sweat, perhaps except in the height of
summer, but then you're going to be sweating on the bus too!

That part of London has some reasonable hills, though; i don't know what
the commute is, but it could be hard work.

tom

--
Who would you help in a fight, Peter van der Linden or Bill Gates?

In message of Sat, 3
Jun 2006 13:51:17 in uk.transport.london, Tom Anderson
writes
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Walter Briscoe wrote:

Can I suggest you try cycling? Borrow a bike for a week if you don't
own one. The main problem is that you will be sweaty on arriving at
work.

Probably not. You only get sweaty if you ride like a mad fiend; you can
do a decent clip without breaking a sweat, perhaps except in the height
of summer, but then you're going to be sweating on the bus too!

My experience is otherwise. When I cycle, I am cooled by the flow of
air. When I stop, that flow also stops but I continue to produce heat at
a similar rate for some time. During that time I sweats to the
consternation of those around.

That part of London has some reasonable hills, though; i don't know
what the commute is, but it could be hard work.

The OP said his journey to work ends on top of a hill.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 13:51:17 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Walter Briscoe wrote:
Can I suggest you try cycling? Borrow a bike for a week if you don't own
one. The main problem is that you will be sweaty on arriving at work.
Probably not. You only get sweaty if you ride like a mad fiend; you can do
a decent clip without breaking a sweat, perhaps except in the height of
summer, but then you're going to be sweating on the bus too!

Well I did start cycling to work once a week last year for a while
(largely to help me lose weight for my wedding, which worked to some
extent), but once the nights started drawing in and the weather turned
dodgy I stopped doing it. I'm afraid I did indeed arrive at work quite
sweaty, because, as you rightly say:

That part of London has some reasonable hills, though; i don't know what
the commute is, but it could be hard work.

I work in Bexleyheath, which is (as my untrained eye sees it) about the
highest point in the area. The cycle ride from here to there therefore
involves either one of the longest steepest hills in the area or an even
longer, slightly less steep hill - hence the sweaty arrival at work. I
have to say that the cycle ride home was thoroughly enjoyable though

Anyway, thanks to Walter for this additional suggestion, and to you for
your follow-up. I really ought to consider doing this again but I
remember how hard it was to get into it when I first started last year
and without the wedding as motivation I've thus far found it too hard to
convince myself to give it another go!

Paul

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 07:26:39 +0100, Walter Briscoe wrote:

I was surprised you can do the work journey for 50p by car. I assume
that is the marginal cost. i.e. it ignores depreciation, car tax,
insurance, etc.

Oops, I didn't address this in my otherwise all-encompassing response to
Tom Anderson.

My estimate of 50p is based on some ancient calculation I did which was
mostly to do with petrol but did have a bit added on for other costs.

It is probably an underestimate to some extent, but given that
circumstances dictate that I can't go completely car-free
('circumstances' mainly being too many relatives living nearby but in
areas with awful public transport links, due to our almost-in-Kent
location), many of the extra costs would be incurred anyway so aren't
strictly relevant.

One reason the figure is so low is that I have a Kia Picanto which was
not only very cheap to buy to start with but also has extremely good
fuel consumption, to the extent that I didn't notice any difference when
moving to it from my old Citroën AX, which was also cheap to run, but
was getting on a bit so had started to run up some hefty maintenance
bills. The Picanto's still new enough to be only halfway through its
three-year warranty so no worries on that front either!

Anyway, don't want to ramble about my car for too long, lest I start
sounding like some kind of car-lover when in an ideal world I'd go
everywhere by public transport! Suffice to say I do have a 'My other car
is a bus' sticker in the Picanto

Paul