On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, dwb wrote:

Considering that the ELL will go from nowhere to nowhere it seems alot
of money to spend.

It's not just about the present, it's about the future too.

It would be nice if areas outside London could get lines built for the
present, nevermind the future.
--
Chris Johns

Nick Pedley wrote:

Just a quick reminder that Shoreditch station (East London Line) will
close
permanently this Friday. Last train appears to depart at 20:34

Out of interest, did they ever consider running the ELL services into
Liverpool Street for all the mainline connections and the direct link to
the City for all the workers?
Or was there too much mainline traffic to allow this?

Well that's what the line originally did but I guess it proved too messy to
justify given the traffic involved. Putting it back now would take at least
one much needed platform at Liverpool Street and create more pressure on one
of the most congested sections of track in London.

If a Liverpool Street to New Crosses root is needed, restoring through
services on the connection at St. Mary's would do the trick better, if the
District and H&C could handle it.

dwb wrote:
Bearing in mind that that I got on a train at Canada Water at 9am the
train was probabley no more than 10-15% full at any point, I hope that
the billions of taxpayer money being spent on this line is being well
spent.
Considering that the ELL will go from nowhere to nowhere it seems alot
of money to spend.

It's not just about the present, it's about the future too.

Take a look at the figures for the Jubilee line, and what they are now,
along with the areas in which it runs to see what could happen.
How can you compare the ELL and the Jubilee? Given the number of jobs
being created in Docklands the Jubilee was essential to make Docklands
viable. The passenger numbers would always have increased.
On the ELL line there are no areas ripe for mass development. Just
makes me wonder if the money being invested in the ELL wouldn't have
been better spent going towards Crossrail, given that the latter can't
get the funding.

Kevin

Chris Johns wrote:
On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, dwb wrote:

Considering that the ELL will go from nowhere to nowhere it seems alot
of money to spend.

It's not just about the present, it's about the future too.

It would be nice if areas outside London could get lines built for the
present, nevermind the future.
--
Chris Johns

Given the overcrowding that has come to light in the last couple of
days on Thameslink and lines out of Kings Cross mayber some of the
money should have gone there.
I bet the people of West Croydon can't wait to get that direct link to
Dalston Junc.

Kevin

Kevin wrote:

Given the overcrowding that has come to light in the last couple of
days on Thameslink and lines out of Kings Cross mayber some of the
money should have gone there.
I bet the people of West Croydon can't wait to get that direct link to
Dalston Junc.


I bet the people of Cricklewood couldn't wait to get that direct link
to Tooting, either. It's a bit of a facetious comparison, I know, since
Thameslink also created new city-centre journeys, but not entirely so.

One with more direct relevance: have you been on the NLL in rush hour
recently? It's as crowded as the GN or Thameslink, despite the fact
that everyone assumed it'd be completely useless when BR created it so
they could close Broad Street and sell up to developers.

It's clear that a (half) decent service creating significant through
journey opportunities creates its own demand - there is no reason to
assume the ELL will be any different from the NLL or the (also rammed)
WLL in this respect.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

It's clear that a (half) decent service creating significant through
journey opportunities creates its own demand - there is no reason to
assume the ELL will be any different from the NLL or the (also rammed)
WLL in this respect.

It's also good to see the development and use of effective orbital
journey opportunities rather than everything being geared up towards
the city centre. That can't be a bad thing, and other smaller cities
could also do with similar provision (albeit probably using buses).

Neil

In message .com, at
07:01:53 on Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Kevin remarked:
Given the overcrowding that has come to light in the last couple of
days on Thameslink and lines out of Kings Cross mayber some of the
money should have gone there.

Do you mean FCC's excuses for putting up the effective ticket prices?

It's been clear for years that those services need upgrading, and the
plan to fix it is well developed: Thameslink 2K. But it's got stuck
because of planning issues.
--
Roland Perry

On 7 Jun 2006 07:29:06 -0700, John B wrote:

It's clear that a (half) decent service creating significant through
journey opportunities creates its own demand - there is no reason to
assume the ELL will be any different from the NLL or the (also rammed)
WLL in this respect.

Indeed. I think it was a mistake not to connect the northern end to
anything, though, as that greatly reduces the through journey
opportunities.

(I know it's planned for Phase 2, but that won't be completed until
years later - if it even happens at all.)

In message .com, Neil
Williams writes
John B wrote:

It's clear that a (half) decent service creating significant through
journey opportunities creates its own demand - there is no reason to
assume the ELL will be any different from the NLL or the (also rammed)
WLL in this respect.

It's also good to see the development and use of effective orbital
journey opportunities rather than everything being geared up towards
the city centre. That can't be a bad thing, and other smaller cities
could also do with similar provision (albeit probably using buses).

Indeed as Birmingham's legendary Outer Circle 11 and Inner Circle 8
routes have proved for 75-80 years. There aren't low-frequency
occasional routes a la those in - say - Norwich but high-frequency
high-capacity routes with frequencies in excess of radial routes in may
places and which have over the decades created travel patterns all their
own.

The ELLX looks distinctly odd on paper. It will probably surprise us
all for the better, though.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...
In message .com, Neil
Williams writes
John B wrote:

It's clear that a (half) decent service creating significant through
journey opportunities creates its own demand - there is no reason to
assume the ELL will be any different from the NLL or the (also rammed)
WLL in this respect.

It's also good to see the development and use of effective orbital
journey opportunities rather than everything being geared up towards
the city centre. That can't be a bad thing, and other smaller cities
could also do with similar provision (albeit probably using buses).

The ELLX looks distinctly odd on paper. It will probably surprise us
all for the better, though.

TfL's long terem aim seems to be to create a not-quite-circular service,
Clapham Junction - Clapham Junction via the SLL, ELL, NLL and WLL.

Peter