On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:49:52 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message .com, Neil
Williams writes
John B wrote:

It's clear that a (half) decent service creating significant through
journey opportunities creates its own demand - there is no reason to
assume the ELL will be any different from the NLL or the (also rammed)
WLL in this respect.

Exactly. If the routes are well run and frequent then people will use
them - even the Barking - Gospel Oak line carries decent loads at times
you would not expect and it doesn't have the most attractive of service
specifications.

It's also good to see the development and use of effective orbital
journey opportunities rather than everything being geared up towards
the city centre. That can't be a bad thing, and other smaller cities
could also do with similar provision (albeit probably using buses).

Indeed as Birmingham's legendary Outer Circle 11 and Inner Circle 8
routes have proved for 75-80 years. There aren't low-frequency
occasional routes a la those in - say - Norwich but high-frequency
high-capacity routes with frequencies in excess of radial routes in may
places and which have over the decades created travel patterns all their
own.

I entirely agree - the 253 / 254 in London make no apparent sense in
terms of end to end destinations but they carry huge volumes of people.

The ELLX looks distinctly odd on paper. It will probably surprise us
all for the better, though.

The ELLX may look odd on its own. The real issue is the service pattern
to be provided over the whole set of TfL inherited routes. Thankfully
there is already some innovative thinking going on which provides a
range of through journeys not available at present.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
snippitty
The ELLX may look odd on its own. The real issue is the service pattern
to be provided over the whole set of TfL inherited routes. Thankfully
there is already some innovative thinking going on which provides a
range of through journeys not available at present.

Somewhat off topic I know, but mention of the TfL inherited routes made me
wonder if anyone knows what the situation with TfL staff passes will be once
the routes pass to TfL control, will these lines become available to staff
passes?
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change from jealous to sad to reply.

Steve Dulieu wrote:

Somewhat off topic I know, but mention of the TfL inherited routes made me
wonder if anyone knows what the situation with TfL staff passes will be once
the routes pass to TfL control, will these lines become available to staff
passes?
--
Cheers, Steve.

I suspect *not*. Had LU been the operator and the extended ELL (and
maybe NLL) incorporated into the Underground proper, then clearly staff
passes would have become valid on all sections.

As things stand I guess "grandfather rights" will allow their use from
Shoreditch to New Cross/New Cross Gate and from Harrow & Wealdstone to
Watford Junction - i.e. as at present.

A precedent was set a few years ago when LU single tickets from
Tottenham Hale to zone 1 were also accepted on WAGN via Liverpool
Street NR. Despite me raising the anomaly, holders of staff passes were
not granted a similar choice in route.

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:46:21 GMT, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .
snippitty
The ELLX may look odd on its own. The real issue is the service pattern
to be provided over the whole set of TfL inherited routes. Thankfully
there is already some innovative thinking going on which provides a
range of through journeys not available at present.

Somewhat off topic I know, but mention of the TfL inherited routes made me
wonder if anyone knows what the situation with TfL staff passes will be once
the routes pass to TfL control, will these lines become available to staff
passes?

I doubt very much that that has yet been considered. I would expect the
TUs to add it to the list of items for negotiation but the fact the
routes are effectively a concession or franchise does not bode well.

There have been very few positive changes to the staff pass or priv
ticket validities since rail privatisation. The usual reasons are money
and reciprocation of benefit for National Rail franchise / Network Rail
employees. The relative sizes of the employee groupings in TfL vs
Network Rail and the TOCs always tilts the cost / benefit balance in
favour of NR and the TOCs and away from TfL.

I don't see much reason for TfL to extend staff pass validity to these
services when they do not own the infrastructure, the vehicles or
directly employ the staff. The nearest parallel is DLR and I am not at
all sure how it works there - do the people maintaining the Lewisham
extension have TfL staff pass validity given they are employed by a
private infrastructure company and no direct relationship with DLR Ltd
or even Serco as the DLR operator?

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!