On 19 Jun 2006 07:53:50 -0700, Neil Williams wrote:

Your fare is not something to be paid only if you cannot avoid it - you
are using a service that costs money to provide and so you should pay
for it. If you don't want to pay your tube fare then get the bus!

Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.

The only way to evade a fare deliberately by Oyster is not to touch
in/out as required.

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

asdf wrote:
On 19 Jun 2006 07:53:50 -0700, Neil Williams wrote:

Your fare is not something to be paid only if you cannot avoid it - you
are using a service that costs money to provide and so you should pay
for it. If you don't want to pay your tube fare then get the bus!

Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.

The only way to evade a fare deliberately by Oyster is not to touch
in/out as required.

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?


More importantly, by what means could you be charged the correct fare?

It's bad enough that in order to be charged correctly for extensions,
you have to get off, go up the escalator, out the gate with your paper
season, in the gate with your Oyster, back down the escalator and wait
for the next train (why don't they have readers in trains?).

But the journey you describe seems to me to be a single journey
involving zones 1 to 4, the same as if you went from Woodford to
Perivale or something, which I think should cost £2.

Doing what you described you'd presumably be charged £1 (I don't know
if the time limit would really allow it).

If you got off during your trip round the Circle Line, touched out and
then touched in again, you would be charged for two trips involving
zones 1 to 4, which would come to £4.

So the correct fare seems not to be possible. Perhaps the answer is
not to do anything so strange.

asdf wrote:
On 19 Jun 2006 07:53:50 -0700, Neil Williams wrote:

Your fare is not something to be paid only if you cannot avoid it - you
are using a service that costs money to provide and so you should pay
for it. If you don't want to pay your tube fare then get the bus!
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.

The only way to evade a fare deliberately by Oyster is not to touch
in/out as required.

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/using/conditions.asp

I think the relevant passages a
--
10.1. If you are travelling on any of our services without either a
ticket that is valid and available for the journey you are making, or an
Oyster card containing a valid season ticket or when paying as you go, a
record of the start of your trip, or, if you are aged 14 or 15
travelling on a bus without a valid Child Oyster photocard, and we
believe that you are trying to avoid paying the correct fare, you may be
prosecuted. If the court finds you guilty it can fine you up to £1000
(and/or send you to prison for up to three months, if you were
travelling on London Underground).

10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card.
--

So if you're using PAYG, as long as you are travelling with an Oyster
card holding a record of the start of the journey, then you have a valid
ticket. It's up to the system to charge the "correct" fare.

However, it seems as though if a ticket inspector stops you on an
eastbound Central line train to South Woodford, they might be
suspicious, and suspect you of defrauding TfL - but all they could do
would be to take away your Oyster card.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

asdf wrote:

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

It's a bit of a contrived example, but as Oyster charging appears to be
based only on entry and exit points I suppose it is strictly OK. Does
LUL have a concept of permitted/reasonable routes? While I realise it
wouldn't affect the fare per-se as the whole thing is in Zone 1, are
you allowed to go the "wrong way" round the Circle Line to travel one
stop, for example?

I've read the OP again and it related to a Travelcard rather than
pre-pay, though, which might change matters, as a TC is for now at
least a traditional zonal ticket.

Neil

On 20 Jun 2006 04:40:14 -0700, Neil Williams wrote:

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

It's a bit of a contrived example, but as Oyster charging appears to be
based only on entry and exit points I suppose it is strictly OK. Does
LUL have a concept of permitted/reasonable routes?

I don't believe so...

I've read the OP again and it related to a Travelcard rather than
pre-pay, though, which might change matters, as a TC is for now at
least a traditional zonal ticket.

Well, if it makes a difference, what if you had a Z4 Travelcard season
on the Oyster?

(I don't think it makes a difference, as you're allowed to travel out
of zone on a Travelcard on Oyster, provided you touch in/out, because
the extension will be charged automagically via PAYG.)

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article .com, Neil
Williams writes
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.

I believe the term is Estoppell - the system has collected a fare for the
journey and given the impression that it's correct. Once this happens,
they cannot then claim a greater amount from the OP.

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower rent
from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each week or
banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to claim the
difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to because he'd left
the tenant with the impression that the rent had been paid and accepted.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

For the last couple of years, we in this group have been discussing the
anomalies in the oyster system and how to get it to charge the "correct"
fare. However this thread has turned the conventional wisdom on its head. So
if u touch in and touch out, it is up to the system to charge the correct
fare, so there can be no "oyster fare evasion". Take for example me,
arriving at Heathrow for the 2012 Olympics (along with a million others). I
haven't read this group, and know nothing of the zones, or of the
complication of transferring to the DLR. I get an oyster card and put £60 on
the card. All I know is, that I have to touch in and touch out regardless of
the erratic journey I may make (not intentional, but lost). As I speak
English (sort of) I will be less lost than the non English speakers!. So I
hope that all this is sorted and simplified by 2012
cheers
Peter
Sydney (you could do what we did in 2000-- run the system at peak rate
24 hours a day and free travel, saved a lot of confusion!)

Dave Arquati wrote:

However, it seems as though if a ticket inspector stops you on an
eastbound Central line train to South Woodford, they might be suspicious,
and suspect you of defrauding TfL - but all they could do would be to take
away your Oyster card.

How will the trainspotters cope?!

peter wrote:
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article .com, Neil
Williams writes
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.
I believe the term is Estoppell - the system has collected a fare for the
journey and given the impression that it's correct. Once this happens,
they cannot then claim a greater amount from the OP.

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower rent
from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each week or
banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to claim the
difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to because he'd left
the tenant with the impression that the rent had been paid and accepted.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

For the last couple of years, we in this group have been discussing the
anomalies in the oyster system and how to get it to charge the "correct"
fare. However this thread has turned the conventional wisdom on its head. So
if u touch in and touch out, it is up to the system to charge the correct
fare, so there can be no "oyster fare evasion". Take for example me,
arriving at Heathrow for the 2012 Olympics (along with a million others). I
haven't read this group, and know nothing of the zones, or of the
complication of transferring to the DLR. I get an oyster card and put £60 on
the card. All I know is, that I have to touch in and touch out regardless of
the erratic journey I may make (not intentional, but lost). As I speak
English (sort of) I will be less lost than the non English speakers!. So I
hope that all this is sorted and simplified by 2012
cheers
Peter
Sydney (you could do what we did in 2000-- run the system at peak rate
24 hours a day and free travel, saved a lot of confusion!)

Part of our Olympic bid was that all Olympic ticket holders will receive
an Oyster card entitling them to free travel on the day(s) of their events.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Sorry, forgot to answer one point:

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

It's a bit of a contrived example...

Perhaps, but I was considering a similar, "real" case (though only on
a theoretical basis) on the day of the Shoreditch last run. (Though I
didn't go in the end.)

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower
rent from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each
week or banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to
claim the difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to
because he'd left the tenant with the impression that the rent had been
paid and accepted.

FWIW (not much), I accidentally paid too much rent (maybe about £1 a
month?) for about two years without noticing.

When I moved out, the landlord returned all of the accumulated extra £1s
along with my deposit. (I still hadn't noticed at this point.)

They didn't bother to tell me while I was doing it, mind you! :-)