asdf wrote:
Sorry, forgot to answer one point:

So what about the following example. I live between Woodford and South
Woodford, and feel like a trip round the Circle Line. So I touch in at
Woodford, travel into London and go once round the Circle, then back
out to South Woodford, where I touch out and walk home. Assuming the
time limit for the journey doesn't get in the way, I pay only the
Woodford to South Woodford fare. Is this fare evasion?

It's a bit of a contrived example...

Perhaps, but I was considering a similar, "real" case (though only on
a theoretical basis) on the day of the Shoreditch last run. (Though I
didn't go in the end.)


Well, someone mentioned "trainspotters". What does happen if you don't
leave the station, but just sit with your egg sandwiches at Acton Town?
Or if you eventually leave, but outside of the two hours? Lots of
unresolved journeys?

Or what if you travel from Woodford just to meet someone and help with
their luggage when they get off the Piccadilly at Barons Court, before
travelling with them back to South Woodford?

There are many examples of not leaving the system that are sufficiently
possible that tens of people must do them every week.

MIG wrote:

It's a bit of a contrived example...

Perhaps, but I was considering a similar, "real" case (though only on
a theoretical basis) on the day of the Shoreditch last run. (Though I
didn't go in the end.)

Well, someone mentioned "trainspotters". What does happen if you don't
leave the station, but just sit with your egg sandwiches at Acton Town?
Or if you eventually leave, but outside of the two hours? Lots of
unresolved journeys?

Or what if you travel from Woodford just to meet someone and help with
their luggage when they get off the Piccadilly at Barons Court, before
travelling with them back to South Woodford?

There are many examples of not leaving the system that are sufficiently
possible that tens of people must do them every week.

Or here's a related one for that part of London. South Woodford to Newbury
Park can be done by changing at either Woodford (and travel through Zone 5)
or by changing at Leytonstone (and staying entirely in Zone 4). Either
involves a change - how does the system know which you've used? And also
when part of the Hainault loop is down at weekends, the "replacement"
service is travelling via the other way - can someone who doesn't have Zone
5 on their travelcard (and maybe not even pre pay - perhaps a paper)
legitimately travel via Roding Valley when they can't go via Wanstead?

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
MIG wrote:

It's a bit of a contrived example...

Perhaps, but I was considering a similar, "real" case (though only on
a theoretical basis) on the day of the Shoreditch last run. (Though I
didn't go in the end.)

Well, someone mentioned "trainspotters". What does happen if you don't
leave the station, but just sit with your egg sandwiches at Acton Town?
Or if you eventually leave, but outside of the two hours? Lots of
unresolved journeys?

Or what if you travel from Woodford just to meet someone and help with
their luggage when they get off the Piccadilly at Barons Court, before
travelling with them back to South Woodford?

There are many examples of not leaving the system that are sufficiently
possible that tens of people must do them every week.

Or here's a related one for that part of London. South Woodford to Newbury
Park can be done by changing at either Woodford (and travel through Zone 5)
or by changing at Leytonstone (and staying entirely in Zone 4). Either
involves a change - how does the system know which you've used? And also
when part of the Hainault loop is down at weekends, the "replacement"
service is travelling via the other way - can someone who doesn't have Zone
5 on their travelcard (and maybe not even pre pay - perhaps a paper)
legitimately travel via Roding Valley when they can't go via Wanstead?


I guess that would only affect paper travelcards, because I think the
Oyster prepay fare is the same. I don't suppose if you had an Oyster
travelcard it would add £1 in prepay to the fare when you got out.

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

involves a change - how does the system know which you've used? And also
when part of the Hainault loop is down at weekends, the "replacement"
service is travelling via the other way - can someone who doesn't have Zone
5 on their travelcard (and maybe not even pre pay - perhaps a paper)
legitimately travel via Roding Valley when they can't go via Wanstead?


It *should* be free, just like they occasionally say your ticket is
valid on lonodn busses.

In actual fact (in the later case at least), you get charged, and they
can't deduct that charge at the tube station (despite the fact the guy
I asked was very helpful, and spent 10 minutes trying to do it)

Paul Weaver wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

involves a change - how does the system know which you've used? And also
when part of the Hainault loop is down at weekends, the "replacement"
service is travelling via the other way - can someone who doesn't have Zone
5 on their travelcard (and maybe not even pre pay - perhaps a paper)
legitimately travel via Roding Valley when they can't go via Wanstead?


It *should* be free, just like they occasionally say your ticket is
valid on lonodn busses.

In actual fact (in the later case at least), you get charged, and they
can't deduct that charge at the tube station (despite the fact the guy
I asked was very helpful, and spent 10 minutes trying to do it)

Much quicker to email Oyster customer services once back at home and get
them to push the refund to a Tube station's gates for collection (or get
them to send out a voucher which can then be put on your card at the
ticket office).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
peter wrote:
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article .com, Neil
Williams writes
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.
I believe the term is Estoppell - the system has collected a fare for
the journey and given the impression that it's correct. Once this
happens, they cannot then claim a greater amount from the OP.

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower
rent from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each
week or banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to
claim the difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to
because he'd left the tenant with the impression that the rent had been
paid and accepted.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

For the last couple of years, we in this group have been discussing the
anomalies in the oyster system and how to get it to charge the "correct"
fare. However this thread has turned the conventional wisdom on its head.
So if u touch in and touch out, it is up to the system to charge the
correct fare, so there can be no "oyster fare evasion". Take for example
me, arriving at Heathrow for the 2012 Olympics (along with a million
others). I haven't read this group, and know nothing of the zones, or of
the complication of transferring to the DLR. I get an oyster card and put
£60 on the card. All I know is, that I have to touch in and touch out
regardless of the erratic journey I may make (not intentional, but lost).
As I speak English (sort of) I will be less lost than the non English
speakers!. So I hope that all this is sorted and simplified by 2012
cheers
Peter
Sydney (you could do what we did in 2000-- run the system at peak
rate 24 hours a day and free travel, saved a lot of confusion!)

Part of our Olympic bid was that all Olympic ticket holders will receive
an Oyster card entitling them to free travel on the day(s) of their
events.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Glad to see you are continuing with that good idea .
cheers
Peter
Sydney

peter wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
peter wrote:
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article .com, Neil
Williams writes
Hardly. The OP is travelling with an Oyster card, using it as
instructed. The correct fare is by definition the one that is charged,
so long as he/she has touched in and out as required.
I believe the term is Estoppell - the system has collected a fare for
the journey and given the impression that it's correct. Once this
happens, they cannot then claim a greater amount from the OP.

[Warning: vague memories ahead] The original version of estoppel was a
rent case. For some years the landlord of a property accepted a lower
rent from the tenant than was actually due, signing the rent book each
week or banking the cheque or whatever. At a later date he then tried to
claim the difference back. Lord Denning said that he was unable to
because he'd left the tenant with the impression that the rent had been
paid and accepted.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:
For the last couple of years, we in this group have been discussing the
anomalies in the oyster system and how to get it to charge the "correct"
fare. However this thread has turned the conventional wisdom on its head.
So if u touch in and touch out, it is up to the system to charge the
correct fare, so there can be no "oyster fare evasion". Take for example
me, arriving at Heathrow for the 2012 Olympics (along with a million
others). I haven't read this group, and know nothing of the zones, or of
the complication of transferring to the DLR. I get an oyster card and put
£60 on the card. All I know is, that I have to touch in and touch out
regardless of the erratic journey I may make (not intentional, but lost).
As I speak English (sort of) I will be less lost than the non English
speakers!. So I hope that all this is sorted and simplified by 2012
cheers
Peter
Sydney (you could do what we did in 2000-- run the system at peak
rate 24 hours a day and free travel, saved a lot of confusion!)
Part of our Olympic bid was that all Olympic ticket holders will receive
an Oyster card entitling them to free travel on the day(s) of their
events.

Glad to see you are continuing with that good idea .
cheers
Peter
Sydney

I think it's quite a common thing these days for big events - they are
doing the same in Germany for the World Cup.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
Much quicker to email Oyster customer services once back at home and get
them to push the refund to a Tube station's gates for collection (or get
them to send out a voucher which can then be put on your card at the
ticket office).

Will they do that for unregistered oysters?

Paul Weaver wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
Much quicker to email Oyster customer services once back at home and get
them to push the refund to a Tube station's gates for collection (or get
them to send out a voucher which can then be put on your card at the
ticket office).

Will they do that for unregistered oysters?

Ah, possibly not...

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
Paul Weaver wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
Much quicker to email Oyster customer services once back at home and
get
them to push the refund to a Tube station's gates for collection (or
get
them to send out a voucher which can then be put on your card at the
ticket office).

Will they do that for unregistered oysters?

Ah, possibly not...

When I lost a registered Oyster Card and replaced it with an unregistered
one,
they pushed the credit from the old (canceled) one onto the new
(unregistered)
one at a named station.

Richard [in SG19]



--
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