wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
wrote:
Phil Clark wrote:
On 27 Jun 2006 11:25:43 -0700, "Solario"
wrote:


Mark B wrote:

Which is right,
St James' Park (on the signs)
St James Park (in the FGW Timetable)
Pronounced St James's Park, both locally and on the
AutoAnouncer

Opinion

The first example could be wrong in context. If it is a street
name sign it should read "St James Park". If it is a park name
board then I guess St James' Park could be correct. I would
expect a station name board to follow street name sign
conventions.

Street signs in St James's seem to be consistent in the use of
the spelling St James's. Not sure about the park though,
haven't been that way recently.

This, strictly speaking is incorrect. Street signage by statutory
bodies should NOT contain punctuation.

What is your source for this idiotic rule?

It is several decades since I was in academia. However, I have
understood for many years that this is the convention in English
speaking countries.

I'm not aware of such a convention, and have certainly seen street name
signs with apostrophes in London. There was a 1952 LCC regulation on
street name signs, and the Department of Transport issued a Circular,
number 3/93, giving guidance to local authorities. Neither contains any
reference to punctuation or apostrophes.

In point of fact, BS7666 would seem to formalize this convention
from a local government perspective within the UK.

I don't know how you arrive at that conclusion. BS7666 doesn't concern
itself with actual signs. The NPLG's "BS7666 for beginners", in
discussing how address data should be presented for inclusion in
BS7666-compliant databases, says that "No abbreviations or punctuation
shall be used, except apostrophes, ampersands, hyphens and parentheses
which may be used where they form part of an official name."
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:
wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
wrote:
Phil Clark wrote:
On 27 Jun 2006 11:25:43 -0700, "Solario"
wrote:


Mark B wrote:

Which is right,
St James' Park (on the signs)
St James Park (in the FGW Timetable)
Pronounced St James's Park, both locally and on the
AutoAnouncer

Opinion

The first example could be wrong in context. If it is a street
name sign it should read "St James Park". If it is a park name
board then I guess St James' Park could be correct. I would
expect a station name board to follow street name sign
conventions.

Street signs in St James's seem to be consistent in the use of
the spelling St James's. Not sure about the park though,
haven't been that way recently.

This, strictly speaking is incorrect. Street signage by statutory
bodies should NOT contain punctuation.

What is your source for this idiotic rule?

It is several decades since I was in academia. However, I have
understood for many years that this is the convention in English
speaking countries.

I'm not aware of such a convention, and have certainly seen street name
signs with apostrophes in London. There was a 1952 LCC regulation on
street name signs, and the Department of Transport issued a Circular,
number 3/93, giving guidance to local authorities. Neither contains any
reference to punctuation or apostrophes.

In point of fact, BS7666 would seem to formalize this convention
from a local government perspective within the UK.

I don't know how you arrive at that conclusion. BS7666 doesn't concern
itself with actual signs. The NPLG's "BS7666 for beginners", in
discussing how address data should be presented for inclusion in
BS7666-compliant databases, says that "No abbreviations or punctuation
shall be used, except apostrophes, ampersands, hyphens and parentheses
which may be used where they form part of an official name."
--
Richard J.

And I am not sure why this is so important to you. However, a brief
google search turned up the the following policy from Leeds City
Council:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=2

I refer especially to the paragraph that reads "Names that could be
construed as obscene, racist or which would contravene any aspect of
the CityCouncil's Equal Opportunities policies will not be acceptable.
Similarly, names are unacceptable thatwould give rise to spelling
difficulties, would involve punctuation (not generally accepted in
BS7666)or which could be considered excessively fashionable. Such names
are likely to give rise to confusionor early demands for a change of
address."

And, from the London Borough of Haringey:

http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index/env...umb ering.htm

In particular "No use of punctuation except for the abreviation of St,
Saint." I find this ironic because St for Saint does not need a period
because it contains the final letter.

Also, from elsewhere in the English speaking world, specifically the
Courthouse in Fort Collins, Larimer County, Colorado:

http://www.co.larimer.co.us/streets/rules.htm

Here I site "Street names cannot contain any punctuation or special
characters. Only alphabetical symbols A through Z, and numbers 0
through 9 and blank spaces may be used in street names."

But if it is important to you to have puntuation in your street names,
please go ahead. I really don't care. :-)

Adrian.

wrote in various posts in this thread:

If it is a street name sign it should read "St James Park".

This [St James's on street signs] strictly speaking is
incorrect. Street signage by statutory bodies should
NOT contain punctuation.

I have understood for many years that this is the convention
in English speaking countries.

In point of fact, BS7666 would seem to formalize this convention
from a local government perspective within the UK.

And I am not sure why this is so important to you.

Only because I do not like to see apparently authoritative statements
that are incorrect left unchallenged. If Leeds, Hackney, Larimer County
or anywhere else want to lay down restrictions on the naming of *new
streets*, that is up to them. But we were discussing established names
such as St John's Wood and St James's Street. The fact is that these do
appear ( maybe not entirely consistently) on street name signs with
their apostrophes, and that BS7666 specifically endorses the use of
apostrophes in these circumstances ("apostrophes ... may be used where
they form part of an official name").

But if it is important to you to have puntuation in your street
names, please go ahead. I really don't care. :-)

Now he tells us! :-)

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On 30 Jun 2006 10:20:50 -0700 you wrote:

And, from the London Borough of Haringey:

http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index/env...umb ering.htm

In particular "No use of punctuation except for the abreviation of St,
Saint." I find this ironic because St for Saint does not need a period
because it contains the final letter.

These would appear to be for new addresses only. There are plenty of
long-established street names in the borough which aren't compliant
with these standards (such as 'The Chine' which breaks the stern
admonition not to start street names with 'The').

Martin