ONscotland wrote:

I'm surprised at the profit they made in London... "Stagecoach London
is estimated to account for approximately £224.6m of the unaudited
revenue and £23.6m of the unaudited operating profit of Stagecoach's
UK Bus division" - that's almost 10% of turnover.

I'm not sure if it is a great surprise - rail is "tendered" (albeit on
a longer basis) and makes them a tidy profit as well. I suspect the
issue with the London routes isn't so much that it's unprofitable -
they'd not have put a loss-leading bid in if it wasn't for political
reasons. It's IMO more likely because they could lose all their London
routes at the drop of a hat if they lost the next tender. That's much
riskier than the wholly-owned provincial operations, which, major
political changes aside, aren't likely to go anywhere in the near
future.

Neil

In article .com,
() wrote:

Does Citi 1 run between the station and Crown Court (opposite the
Grafton Centre)?

Dunno. I always cycle (or occasionally drive) there. The court is across
the road from my garage. The Citi 3 goes close (at least Newmarket Road)
though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article .com,
() wrote:

Does Citi 1 run between the station and Crown Court (opposite the
Grafton Centre)?

Dunno. I always cycle (or occasionally drive) there. The court is across
the road from my garage. The Citi 3 goes close (at least Newmarket Road)
though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

I've just checked the Stagecoach website. Not one of their Citi routes
goes on the East Road side of the Grafton Centre, and only one passed
on the other side of it which is useless for the Crown Court.

Of course, the 007 route is not even shown on the Stagecoach website -
which brings me right back to the original criticism of the
fragmentation of services. If I had been planning to travel to Court by
train from London and looked at their Website, I would not even have
known of the existence of that route, and assumed I'd need to take a
taxi. That is just the sort of idiocy (whatever other criticisms there
might be of monopolies or centralised control) which we avoid in
London.

Marc.

wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article .com,
() wrote:

Does Citi 1 run between the station and Crown Court (opposite the
Grafton Centre)?

Dunno...

I've just checked the Stagecoach website. Not one of their Citi routes
goes on the East Road side of the Grafton Centre, and only one passed
on the other side of it which is useless for the Crown Court.

Of course, the 007 route is not even shown on the Stagecoach website -
which brings me right back to the original criticism of the
fragmentation of services. If I had been planning to travel to Court by
train from London and looked at their Website, I would not even have
known of the existence of that route, and assumed I'd need to take a
taxi.

www.traveline.org.uk has a journey planner which shows all bus routes
in Cambridge. It shows the Guide Friday 7 as the only route between the
station and the Grafton Centre bus station, about every 15 mins.

It's about a mile, so it's also walkable for most people.

PaulO

"Neil Williams" wrote:

I suspect the issue with the London routes isn't so much that it's
unprofitable -
they'd not have put a loss-leading bid in if it wasn't for political
reasons. It's IMO more likely because they could lose all their London
routes at the drop of a hat if they lost the next tender.

Not sure what you mean there. London bus services are tendered
route-by-route (1), so none of the large operators are going to lose all
their routes 'at the drop of a hat'.

Stagecoach London did a reasonable job of maintaining their TfL contract
work when it came up for tender, especially core propositions like the 8, 15
and 86 in east London. They won back the 25 from First when it went 'bendy',
although IIRC something else went the other way at the same time.

At the margins, it was 'win some, lose some' against First and Arriva. My
overall impression was that First were losing ground; the smaller operators
(Blue Triangle, Docklands Buses etc) were picking up some tiny morsels but
then struggling to retain what they had won, whilst Arriva and Stagecoach
were strong.

Chris

(1) Although operators are allowed to tender for groups of routes (usually
those run from the same garage) on the basis of 'economies of scale'
allowing cost savings to be generated, and many such bids are accepted.

In article . com,
(Paul Oter) wrote:

wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article
.com,
() wrote:

Does Citi 1 run between the station and Crown Court (opposite
the Grafton Centre)?

Dunno...

I've just checked the Stagecoach website. Not one of their Citi
routes goes on the East Road side of the Grafton Centre, and only one
passed on the other side of it which is useless for the Crown Court.

Of course, the 007 route is not even shown on the Stagecoach
website - which brings me right back to the original criticism of the
fragmentation of services. If I had been planning to travel to
Court by train from London and looked at their Website, I would not
even have known of the existence of that route, and assumed I'd need
to take a taxi.

www.traveline.org.uk has a journey planner which shows all bus routes
in Cambridge. It shows the Guide Friday 7 as the only route between
the station and the Grafton Centre bus station, about every 15 mins.

It's about a mile, so it's also walkable for most people.

I would always advise using the County Council web site for Cambs bus
information. It is operator-neutral and comprehensive.

I hardly think walking from Newmarket Road is far to go from the nearest
stop served by the Citi 3 though. Certainly under 5 minutes. It's hardly
further than the Grafton Centre bus station. You don't often do much
better in London either.

As for the management of bus services I agree entirely. A former City
Council leader did once suggest Cambridge should aim to become a London
Borough on the grounds that would give us the powers we need to deliver
for the City.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Paul Oter wrote:
wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article .com,
() wrote:

Does Citi 1 run between the station and Crown Court (opposite the
Grafton Centre)?


www.traveline.org.uk has a journey planner which shows all bus routes
in Cambridge. It shows the Guide Friday 7 as the only route between the
station and the Grafton Centre bus station, about every 15 mins.

It's about a mile, so it's also walkable for most people.

PaulO

Not if it's inclement weather and you are carrying one bag full of
robes and another full of books, and you'd rather not arrive at Court
looking like something the cat dragged in!

Marc.

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article . com,
(Paul Oter) wrote:

wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article
.com,
() wrote:

Does Citi 1 run between the station and Crown Court (opposite
the Grafton Centre)?

Dunno...

I've just checked the Stagecoach website. Not one of their Citi
routes goes on the East Road side of the Grafton Centre, and only one
passed on the other side of it which is useless for the Crown Court.

Of course, the 007 route is not even shown on the Stagecoach
website - which brings me right back to the original criticism of the
fragmentation of services. If I had been planning to travel to
Court by train from London and looked at their Website, I would not
even have known of the existence of that route, and assumed I'd need
to take a taxi.

www.traveline.org.uk has a journey planner which shows all bus routes
in Cambridge. It shows the Guide Friday 7 as the only route between
the station and the Grafton Centre bus station, about every 15 mins.

It's about a mile, so it's also walkable for most people.

I would always advise using the County Council web site for Cambs bus
information. It is operator-neutral and comprehensive.

I hardly think walking from Newmarket Road is far to go from the nearest
stop served by the Citi 3 though. Certainly under 5 minutes. It's hardly
further than the Grafton Centre bus station. You don't often do much
better in London either.

As for the management of bus services I agree entirely. A former City
Council leader did once suggest Cambridge should aim to become a London
Borough on the grounds that would give us the powers we need to deliver
for the City.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Yes, Colin, but that doesn't cure the problem that if, on the way back
through the Grafton Centre to catch the Citi 3, I came upon a 007,
which stop I would have to pass before I even entered the shopping
centre - I would not be able to it because my ticket would be
restricted to the Citi 3. Maybe there's another stop in Newmarket Road
which would be nearer, but that doesn't cure the untranferrability of
ticket problem.

I don't really care who operates bus services - one company, or lots,
privately-owned or public, as long as at the point of delivery there is
full interchangeability of tickets and a single route numbering
structure ("007" and "Citi 1", "Citi 2" etc. are frankly ridiculous
names - when Stagecoach develop their 7th Citi [and yes, I do know what
"Citi" stands for - but it's hardly what I would call "integrated"!],
will there be a "007" and "Citi 7" just to confuse everyone?) with
common stopping points, a single map etc. All of this, mercifully, we
still have in London.

The Emmanuel Street bus stopping arrangements are a joke. Approaching
from the South, by the time I had inspected all of the microscopic
writing on the first 2 or 3 shelters to see if that is where the
Babraham Road Park & Ride stopped, I would have most likely missed at
least one of them! It's the small things like standardised signs and
typefaces that make all the difference between an integgrated and
efficient service and a shambles. The ease of finding the right stop
for the "007" at Grafton Centre is hardly any better. If I recall (it
was over a year ago), there was no sign at all, and I had to ask people
standing at each shelter before I reached the right one.

And positively misleading (by omission) websites and maps like the
Stagecoach one referred to ought to be totally outlawed.

I also fervently believe in standardisation of buses themselves. Sadly,
we have lost this in London. What I mean is, buses with steps,
handlebars, windows etc. all of a common design and in the same place
on buses, so that the elderly, infirm and blind can at least know where
to expect to find railings, can familiarise themselves with steps etc.
The appalling mish-mash we now have, means I am forever catching my
finger on a railing attachment on the stairs because the last bus I
travelled in did not have an attachment there, or tripping on a step
that in one bus protrudes where in the others it doesn't, etc. etc.

Marc.

In article .com,
() wrote:

Yes, Colin, but that doesn't cure the problem that if, on the way back
through the Grafton Centre to catch the Citi 3, I came upon a 007,
which stop I would have to pass before I even entered the shopping
centre - I would not be able to it because my ticket would be
restricted to the Citi 3. Maybe there's another stop in Newmarket
Road which would be nearer, but that doesn't cure the
untranferrability of ticket problem.

The nearest stop for the Citi 3 towards the station is no further in the
other direction from the court as is the Grafton bus station. It's just
past the Rose and Crown PH. The stop for buses from the station is just
across Newmarket Road from there.

I don't really care who operates bus services - one company, or lots,
privately-owned or public, as long as at the point of delivery there
is full interchangeability of tickets and a single route numbering
structure ("007" and "Citi 1", "Citi 2" etc. are frankly ridiculous
names - when Stagecoach develop their 7th Citi [and yes, I do know
what "Citi" stands for - but it's hardly what I would call
"integrated"!], will there be a "007" and "Citi 7" just to confuse
everyone?) with common stopping points, a single map etc. All of this,
mercifully, we still have in London.

Blame competition legislation.

The Emmanuel Street bus stopping arrangements are a joke. Approaching
from the South, by the time I had inspected all of the microscopic
writing on the first 2 or 3 shelters to see if that is where the
Babraham Road Park & Ride stopped, I would have most likely missed at
least one of them! It's the small things like standardised signs and
typefaces that make all the difference between an integgrated and
efficient service and a shambles. The ease of finding the right stop
for the "007" at Grafton Centre is hardly any better. If I recall (it
was over a year ago), there was no sign at all, and I had to ask
people standing at each shelter before I reached the right one.

There is an improvement scheme there due to be implemented shortly.

And positively misleading (by omission) websites and maps like the
Stagecoach one referred to ought to be totally outlawed.

How? it's a free market. The County Council provides comprehensive
information. Use their site.

I also fervently believe in standardisation of buses themselves.
Sadly, we have lost this in London. What I mean is, buses with steps,
handlebars, windows etc. all of a common design and in the same place
on buses, so that the elderly, infirm and blind can at least know
where to expect to find railings, can familiarise themselves with
steps etc. The appalling mish-mash we now have, means I am forever
catching my finger on a railing attachment on the stairs because the
last bus I travelled in did not have an attachment there, or tripping
on a step that in one bus protrudes where in the others it doesn't,
etc. etc.

If you thought about what you were saying for only a moment you would
realise how impractical you are being. We would still have buses with
outside stairs and open tops.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Blame competition legislation.

Hardly. Milton Keynes has only one duplicated number, and the
duplication is on a weekly rural shopping bus well outside the town
that doesn't have any commonality of route with the other version.
It'd be easy to eliminate that one.

What would make sense is for numbers to have to be approved by the
Traffic Commissioners, such that it is not permitted to register a
route with a number that already exists in a specified area. That
would be easy to implement as part of route registration.

If you thought about what you were saying for only a moment you would
realise how impractical you are being. We would still have buses with
outside stairs and open tops.

Hardly. Hamburg, with a few exceptions, uses pretty much exclusively
Mercedes O405 and Citaro full-size single-deck vehicles, the latter
only appearing because the former are no longer available. There are
admittedly a number of the bendy version of each, but the front part of
the body is the same. They have several operators, though operations
are highly regulated.

London *is* standardising, anyhow - the bendy routes are Citaros only.
There also seem to be only a couple of double-decker designs that are
appearing brand-new.

Neil