Alan OBrien wrote:

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Only PAYG users need to touch in.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."

That goes for all Oyster cards, prepay and season tickets.

Yes but as discussed before not all passengers can touch in at some starts
and ends, due to lack of readers. I'm also left completely unclear as to
whether readers at National Rail stations with barriers (e.g. Ilford) are
sufficient or whether one has to again touch on to a reader when switching
to the tube.

On a daily basis I don't touch in when interchanging at Stratford, not least
because the readers on the platform are badly positioned given the crowds
the station has to cope with, and I've never had a problem when exiting the
system at a barrier.

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Alan OBrien wrote:

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Only PAYG users need to touch in.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."

That goes for all Oyster cards, prepay and season tickets.

Yes but as discussed before not all passengers can touch in at some starts
and ends, due to lack of readers. I'm also left completely unclear as to
whether readers at National Rail stations with barriers (e.g. Ilford) are
sufficient or whether one has to again touch on to a reader when switching
to the tube.

On a daily basis I don't touch in when interchanging at Stratford, not least
because the readers on the platform are badly positioned given the crowds
the station has to cope with, and I've never had a problem when exiting the
system at a barrier.

Woah - let's correct some things here.

The NCoC, whilst trying to be helpful, is wrong. As you've observed,
there aren't Oyster readers at most National Rail (NR) stations,
because Oyster Pre-Pay is not accepted as a way for paying for your NR
journey (this will change, but not a few years).

I'm going to make up a fantasy journey in your neck of the woods Tim to
illustrate a few things. Let's say you travel from Forest Gate (zone
3), a station *without* gates, into central London - say Oxford Circus
(zone 1), changing at Stratford onto the Central Line. In this case
you'll have a zones 1-3 Travelcard loaded onto your Oyster card (i.e.
you're not using Oyster Pre-Pay to pay for your journey at all).

You wouldn't need to touch-in at the beginning of your journey, not
simply because there aren't any readers at Forest Gate but because it's
not required (the NCoC is wrong here). Nor would you need to touch-in
your Oyster at a reader at Stratford when changing onto the Central
Line.

*If* you were to decide to go to West Ruislip (zone 6) at the end of
the Central Line in the west, then you *would* need to touch-in on an
Oyster reader on the Central Line platform at Stratford. This would
provide a start point for your journey on the Tube, and the gates at
West Ruislip would deduct the appropriate amount for the journey from
the edge of zone 3 to West Ruislip/zone 6.


In real life you start your journey from Ilford - but the gates you go
through are currently dumb, they don't mark an entry point onto the
transport system on your card (you are not touching-in here), they just
let you through as they can see you have the right zone on your card*.
Presuming you travel into central London, on the Central Line like the
fantasy journey above, you don't need to touch in at Straford, the
zones on your Travelcard have you covered. If you fancy seeing the
delights of West Ruislip then you need to touch-in at Stratford on the
Central Line platform.

I guess that's as clear as mud then, but it is right.

Alan OBrien wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
Richard M Willis wrote:
"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message

Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

You need not touch in or out if you have a Travelcard loaded on your
Oyster that is valid for the entire journey.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."



That is all Oyster cards.

The NCoC is wrong here, both in terms of how the system works and in
terms of the physical reality. It is well intentioned though.

In terms of the system, if I hold a season Travelcard loaded onto my
Oyster and walk through the gates at a Tube or NR station, as long as I
stay within the zones I have then that is fine - I hold a valid ticket.
I do this, I get checked by inspectors, their handheld scanners show I
have a valid ticket and that is that.

In terms of the physical reality, there are *no* Oyster readers at the
majority of NR stations in Greater London. It is therefore impossible
to touch-in or out at these stations, full stop.

On the few NR routes where Oyster Pre-Pay is accepted, e.g. Elephant &
Castle to Kentish Town on the Thameslink route, then the NCoC is right
- you must touch-in and out to travel legitimately.

It would be difficult to word the NCoC to unambiguously to reflect the
reality of the situation. I'm sure the reason why the NCoC uses the
language it does is to ensure fare evaders can't hide behind it. And
perhaps the authors don't entirely understand how the system works.

Mizter T wrote:

I think it's fair enough for the system designers to assume that with
this example the route taken would be via zone 1 on the Central Line. I
guess if you did want to go via Rayner's Lane then you can ensure you
don't pay for zone 1 by exiting and re-entering the station via the
gates - thus ensuring the system knows what you're doing.

Actually I think that might cause problems as well. I've done this
(admittedly within my season ticket zones) when I was feeling a bit
grotty on one of the trains and decided to get some fresh air. So I
existed a station for about one or two minutes and then tried to
re-enter. This caused an error message and when I went to the gateline
staff they told me it was because I had just left.

I suppose that makes sense as exiting and then re-entering immediately
is rather odd behaviour and may indicate someone passing their card to
someone else.

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Alan OBrien wrote:

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Only PAYG users need to touch in.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground
and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader
at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."

That goes for all Oyster cards, prepay and season tickets.

Yes but as discussed before not all passengers can touch in at some
starts
and ends, due to lack of readers. I'm also left completely unclear as to
whether readers at National Rail stations with barriers (e.g. Ilford) are
sufficient or whether one has to again touch on to a reader when
switching
to the tube.

On a daily basis I don't touch in when interchanging at Stratford, not
least
because the readers on the platform are badly positioned given the crowds
the station has to cope with, and I've never had a problem when exiting
the
system at a barrier.

Woah - let's correct some things here.

The NCoC, whilst trying to be helpful, is wrong. As you've observed,
there aren't Oyster readers at most National Rail (NR) stations,
because Oyster Pre-Pay is not accepted as a way for paying for your NR
journey (this will change, but not a few years).

I'm going to make up a fantasy journey in your neck of the woods Tim to
illustrate a few things. Let's say you travel from Forest Gate (zone
3), a station *without* gates, into central London - say Oxford Circus
(zone 1), changing at Stratford onto the Central Line. In this case
you'll have a zones 1-3 Travelcard loaded onto your Oyster card (i.e.
you're not using Oyster Pre-Pay to pay for your journey at all).

You wouldn't need to touch-in at the beginning of your journey, not
simply because there aren't any readers at Forest Gate but because it's
not required (the NCoC is wrong here). Nor would you need to touch-in
your Oyster at a reader at Stratford when changing onto the Central
Line.

*If* you were to decide to go to West Ruislip (zone 6) at the end of
the Central Line in the west, then you *would* need to touch-in on an
Oyster reader on the Central Line platform at Stratford. This would
provide a start point for your journey on the Tube, and the gates at
West Ruislip would deduct the appropriate amount for the journey from
the edge of zone 3 to West Ruislip/zone 6.


In real life you start your journey from Ilford - but the gates you go
through are currently dumb, they don't mark an entry point onto the
transport system on your card (you are not touching-in here), they just
let you through as they can see you have the right zone on your card*.
Presuming you travel into central London, on the Central Line like the
fantasy journey above, you don't need to touch in at Straford, the
zones on your Travelcard have you covered. If you fancy seeing the
delights of West Ruislip then you need to touch-in at Stratford on the
Central Line platform.

I guess that's as clear as mud then, but it is right.


One slight issue.
The last three days the main gates at Stratford have been wide open and the
oyster readers dead (no light) I return travel to Holborn peak hours.
What would I be charged if on PAYG?
Will all incomplete journeys be sorted automatically?

David Howdon wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

I think it's fair enough for the system designers to assume that with
this example the route taken would be via zone 1 on the Central Line. I
guess if you did want to go via Rayner's Lane then you can ensure you
don't pay for zone 1 by exiting and re-entering the station via the
gates - thus ensuring the system knows what you're doing.

Actually I think that might cause problems as well. I've done this
(admittedly within my season ticket zones) when I was feeling a bit
grotty on one of the trains and decided to get some fresh air. So I
existed a station for about one or two minutes and then tried to
re-enter. This caused an error message and when I went to the gateline
staff they told me it was because I had just left.

I suppose that makes sense as exiting and then re-entering immediately
is rather odd behaviour and may indicate someone passing their card to
someone else.


Now you say it that issue does sound familiar, I think I've encountered
that.

In terms of exiting and re-rentering being a pain in the arse and you
as the passenger getting funny looks then that is a problem - you just
need to be let back in through the manual gates with the staff querying
your card using a handheld reader (if they can be bothered - or they
could always use a Oyster ticket machine to check your Oyster, I've
seen Tube staff do this). However it wouldn't be a problem in terms of
messing up your journey on the Oyster system. As this previous poster
explains [1]...

"Oyster can cope with an entry followed by two exits, as it just
extends the journey. However two entries followed by one exit will lead
to an unresolved journey."

....so you can go in (once), out (once), be let back in through the
manual gates and out (a second time). Being let back in at the gates
wouldn't count on your Oyster card.


[1] Link to Google Group archive of message:
http://tinyurl.com/pnybd

Andy wrote:
One slight issue.
The last three days the main gates at Stratford have been wide open and the
oyster readers dead (no light) I return travel to Holborn peak hours.
What would I be charged if on PAYG?
Will all incomplete journeys be sorted automatically?


The Oyster readers on the gates certainly seem dead if they have no
light on - this shouldn't be the case, they should always be on, but in
this case they may have been off (I've no idea why, especially for
three days running).

You'll be able to tell if you go to a Tube ticket machine and check
your journey history - there you can see if you have unresolved
journeys.

If all you do is travel from Stratford to Holborn and back, perhaps
with a bus journey at either end, then you won't be out of pocket.
Unless things have changed you'll be charged a single zone 1 fare on
exit at Holborn in the morning, and a further single zone 1 fare when
entering Holborn in the evening.

If however you've travelled much more than that on any day then you
wouldn't have benefited from the daily cap (the cap on how much you
spend each day), as this will only work on the condition that you
touch-in and out for each journey you make, any unresolved journeys
during that day and you forfeit your daily cap.

Obviously if you weren't able to touch-in/out at Stratford then this
isn't your fault. If you think you should've been capped but weren't,
you can either take this up at a Tube ticket office or perhaps better
get TfL to send you your recent journey history. As long as your card
is registered, if you call the Oyster helpline they'll send you the
last three months of your journey history at no cost. Then you can
identify any overcharging and get a refund.


See this FAQ answer on the 'Oyster help' website (what used to be
called 'Ask Oyster'):
http://tinyurl.com/jr97b

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:06:36 GMT, David Howdon
wrote:

I think it's fair enough for the system designers to assume that with
this example the route taken would be via zone 1 on the Central Line. I
guess if you did want to go via Rayner's Lane then you can ensure you
don't pay for zone 1 by exiting and re-entering the station via the
gates - thus ensuring the system knows what you're doing.

Actually I think that might cause problems as well. I've done this
(admittedly within my season ticket zones) when I was feeling a bit
grotty on one of the trains and decided to get some fresh air. So I
existed a station for about one or two minutes and then tried to
re-enter. This caused an error message and when I went to the gateline
staff they told me it was because I had just left.

I'm sure I did something similar to this a few months ago when I
arrived at a station by Tube, met a friend in the ticket hall, then we
immediately went back into the Tube. Can't remember whether I was
using pre-pay or a Travelcard, but the gates had no problem with me
exiting then entering again a very short time later.

I suppose that makes sense as exiting and then re-entering immediately
is rather odd behaviour and may indicate someone passing their card to
someone else.

Unlikely - that would generally involve an entry followed by another
entry, or an exit followed by another exit.

On 29 Jun 2006 15:46:07 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster can cope with an entry followed by two exits, as it just
extends the journey. However two entries followed by one exit will lead
to an unresolved journey."

...so you can go in (once), out (once), be let back in through the
manual gates and out (a second time). Being let back in at the gates
wouldn't count on your Oyster card.

Interesting. Does this apply to all exits, even ones at the barriers
on the way out of a station, where you can't just be changing to
another line? I'd have expected you to end up with a complete journey,
followed by an unresolved (unstarted) journey.

The other kind of validator is ones like the platform ones at Ealing
Broadway, where you might be ending your journey (transferring to NR)
or you might not be (either changing between District and Central, or
on your way to the station exit where there are barriers). AFAIK these
ones definitely work as you describe.

"David Howdon" wrote in
message

Actually I think that might cause problems as well. I've done this
(admittedly within my season ticket zones) when I was feeling a bit
grotty on one of the trains and decided to get some fresh air. So I
existed a station for about one or two minutes and then tried to
re-enter. This caused an error message and when I went to the gateline
staff they told me it was because I had just left.

This is just the passback time-out. It is, as you suggest,
to prevent people passing their card/ticket back to someone else
behind them. Hence the name. I've often exited station gate lines to
get some junk food and re-entered 90s later. The staff are well
accustomed to pass back time problems and I've never had any trouble
getting them to let me back in.

Richard [in SG19]



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