On 4 Jul 2006 13:58:33 -0700 someone who may be "Neil Williams"
wrote this:-

IMO, the way First overbrand makes them look shoddy and unprofessional.
They'd do better to go lower-key.

Indeed. In Scotland National Express were very low key, simply
saying in a few places that the company was part of the National
Express Group. Then Last came along and stuck their "F" on
everything they can, as well as painting the trains pink. Given the
state of some of their buses in Edinburgh I doubt if this approach
has done the group any good. It has probably done the railways a
little damage, though not much.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article .com,
(Mizter T) wrote:

And every time I hear or see 'First' in front of a train
companies name I'm reminded that First Group PLC is somehow
managing to funnel loadsa wonga to their shareholders at the
same time that plenty of public cash get's pumped in to the
transport system.

Having a choice of franchises at Cambridge of "First" and 'one'
suggests we can't count above 1!

This is of course true for a single binary bit, and very appropriate for
Cambridge which built the first general service computer in the world in
1949*.

In theory, one of the TOCs there should be called Zero or Nought, but
perhaps the marketing people wouldn't have liked that.

* To be more precise, I mean the first fully operational and practical
stored-program digital computer, EDSAC 1, which was *the* computer for
Cambridge University 1949-1958.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"Rich Mackin" wrote in message
...
"Paul Ebbens" wrote in message
...

"Mark B" wrote in message
...
Paul G wrote:

I thought TOC's were free to call themselves what they like - without
having to seek approval from Ken...

Do wonder if he'd rather have the trains painted in London Rail
Brown/Orange with roundels... First Neon City or London Turd?*

*which would probably spread to all trains serving the capital, like all
buses operating services classed as London must be red...


I thought Thameslink was around before branding? or did the King's Cross
TL station only appear after franchising?

Nope, the route was branded 'Thameslink', including all the same stations
as they are today, by NSE from opening in May 1987.
So really it is not a privatised brandname at all, so that means First has
no true reason to get rid of it just because previous company was named so?

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 20:40:25 +0100 someone who may be Mark B
wrote this:-

I thought TOC's were free to call themselves what they like

Try taking up a franchise for a McDonald's "restaurant" and see how
far you get calling it what you like.

It is true though that government is a **** poor franchisor and has
failed to be as sensible in this respect.

Well they certainly wouldn't let u go off the path of well established
red-white-blues for the network south east for a start...

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ps.com...
R.C. Payne wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
This is a bit like the distinction between "ECML" and "GNER", "WCML"
and
"Virgin". Are we being boring by assuming that people can't
discriminate
between the route and the operator? Are the operators making things
worse when they alter the signs?

In the past, sets of routes (like ECML, WCML &c.) have generally been
unique to a particular toc, so there has been no need to differentiate
between route and toc. Now we have the situation where two quite
independent routes running in very close proximity are run by the same
toc.

I guess this is the point about FCC - that under the Thameslink 2000
plans [1] their two independent routes - Thameslink and Great Northern
- would become linked. I don't know the details but when implemented
trains from the Great Northern route (or even from the ECML) wouldn't
terminate at Kings Cross but would continue southwards through the
Thameslink route.

Thus one could say their franchise name is a long-sighted decision, as
their two routes will in future become one - or at least become linked.

Thinking about this... it wouldve been just as bad if the services all the
way up to Peterborough and King's Lynn were called Thameslink...

"naked_draughtsman" wrote in message
ps.com...

R.C. Payne wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In the past, sets of routes (like ECML, WCML &c.) have generally been
unique to a particular toc.

Virgin west coast/Virgin cross country sounds good and I think it was
used until recently (when they started using Pendolino/Voyager without
realising Voyagers were used on some WC routes!)

But usually the VWC VCC turns into just Virgin far as Virgin is concerned...
no telling which routes are sometimes on engineering when its involving VT
sometimes... (For the ordinary traveller that is)

Did one do something similar when they took over their franchise? (One
Anglia...?)

one Anglia, one Great Eastern, one West Anglia and one Stansted Express
(although did the last one ever catch on -- but then again, they soon
removed them didn't they so new travellers have no flipping idea what
they mean by West Anglia route or whatever....

First Thameslink sounds fine, as does First Capital Thameslink. Should
keep both parties happy.

peter

"Rupert Candy" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mizter T wrote:
asdf wrote:

On 4 Jul 2006 06:44:09 -0700, Paul Oter wrote:

I think that not only should the name "Thameslink" be retained, but
the
name "Great Northern" (or something better) be resurrected to refer to
the Moorgate-Finsbury Park (and beyond) line. You can still make out
the painted-over words "Great Northern Electrics" on some (not very)
old signs.

At Highbury & Islington, the signs still direct passengers towards
"British Rail (Eastern)".

Both Moorgate and High & I are LU-managed stations. LU obviously
doesn't feel the need to do the TOC's branding for them by replacing
the signs each time there's a new franchise holder.

ICBW, but I wonder whether LUL tried keeping up with franchise names
for a while then (sensibly) gave up. I say this because the rebuilt
West Ham station opened with signs pointing to "LTS Rail" and
"Silverlink Metro", but more recent (re-)signings seem to just refer to
"National Rail". Frankly, I don't imagine TOC names are much help to
your average passenger anyway - the double arrow symbol and some
indication of destinations is probably much more useful.

Yes it is a pity they don't use (British) National Rail to its full
advantage by calling the whole lot the same thing, and allowing operators to
just be the subline... operated by NorthEastSouthWestRail... then there
could be some kind of real definition of
Intercity/regional/local/international standard to the type of trains and
services... but OH no, Britain can not have anything so wonderfully
simple...

Paul

"Richard J." wrote
* To be more precise, I mean the first fully operational and practical
stored-program digital computer, EDSAC 1, which was *the* computer for
Cambridge University 1949-1958.

The computer programming lectures for mathematics undergraduates were still
based on EDSAC when I attended them in the mid-60's, but I think that
changed shortly afterwards.

John Salmon wrote:
"Richard J." wrote
* To be more precise, I mean the first fully operational and
practical stored-program digital computer, EDSAC 1, which was
*the* computer for Cambridge University 1949-1958.

The computer programming lectures for mathematics undergraduates
were still based on EDSAC when I attended them in the mid-60's, but
I think that changed shortly afterwards.

That would have been EDSAC 2 which replaced EDSAC 1 in 1958. It was in
turn replaced by Titan (prototype Ferranti Atlas 2) in 1965.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 21:55 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article om,
(Mizter T) wrote:

[1] Network Rail has renamed the Thameslink 2000 project to the
'Thameslink Programme', which I guess makes it slightly less of a
laughing stock, and is also suitably ambiguous with regards to
any timeframe.

You can read all about it on this incredibly helpful page on the
Network Rail website:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/1326.aspx

Not now you can't: "This page is currently being updated".

I think that was the reason for the pointed comment about
"incredibly helpful".

Ah! I missed the irony.

--
Colin Rosenstiel