When the Thameslink station moves to St Pancras in December 2007, is
the exit from the Northern and Victoria lines into Pentonville Road
also going to close?

My guess would be that it will stay open until at least 2009, because
until the Northern Ticket Hall opens it is the only alternative exit
from the tube platforms and so closing it would be viewed as poor
safety (one of the reasons for the large death toll in the 1987 fire
was that the Pentonville Road exit was barred and staff/LFB had no key
for it, so people evacuating the station had to go up the Victoria Line
escalators and through the main ticket hall).

How about after 2009? Are the benefits of allowing commuters who need
to go to the Pentonville Road area to bypass the main station complex
worth the cost?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

(snip)

My guess would be that it will stay open until at least 2009, because
until the Northern Ticket Hall opens it is the only alternative exit
from the tube platforms and so closing it would be viewed as poor
safety (one of the reasons for the large death toll in the 1987 fire
was that the Pentonville Road exit was barred and staff/LFB had no key
for it, so people evacuating the station had to go up the Victoria Line
escalators and through the main ticket hall).

That fact from 1987 shines a somewhat different and more sinister light
on the "smile" motifs that appear on the walls of the tunnel walkway
that lead up to the Pentonville Road exit from the main KXSP
underground complex. It's hard to believe there was such a lack of
contingency planning.

I've no answer to your main query, though I'm most interested in
hearing if anyone else has one. I don't believe any decision has been
made publicly yet, which isn't to say that accountants haven't already
identified the closure of this entrance as a potential future cost
saving measure.

One thing to bear in mind is that the Pentonville Road entrance is
manned by FCC staff, as it's the main entrance to KX Thameslink
station. Once the new Thameslink station opens at St. Pancras Midland
Road (or whatever it'll eventually be called) then FCC definitely won't
be staffing Pentonville Road anymore. Thus if it were to remain open LU
would have to staff it, which would be regarded as an added expense. I
think this might tip the balance in favour of it closing, albeit
remaining available as an emergency exit from the KXSP complex and
perhaps also for emergency alighting from Thameslink trains onto the
closed platforms of KX Thameslink.

Mizter T wrote:

One thing to bear in mind is that the Pentonville Road entrance is
manned by FCC staff, as it's the main entrance to KX Thameslink
station. Once the new Thameslink station opens at St. Pancras Midland
Road (or whatever it'll eventually be called) then FCC definitely won't
be staffing Pentonville Road anymore. Thus if it were to remain open LU
would have to staff it, which would be regarded as an added expense. I
think this might tip the balance in favour of it closing, albeit
remaining available as an emergency exit from the KXSP complex and
perhaps also for emergency alighting from Thameslink trains onto the
closed platforms of KX Thameslink.

One possibility, I suppose, it that LU will do something similar to
what they have done at the Met line entrance to Moorgate station: the
ticket office there has closed permanently and the entrance is only
open Mon-Fri until about 8pm. According to the signs, however, it is
available as an emergency exit at all times.

PaulO

No it is to remain open and apparently that has been guaranteed.. As
someone who uses it on a daily basis, I will be very dissapointed when
the Thameslink station does shut bearing in mind the distance to the
new Thameslink station(or FCC as it is now called). While it cannot be
extended I have no doubt that the station could have easily been
re-developed as a eight car station including the platforms being made
bigger. If the devloped the area over the station it could have helped
pay for it.


While reluctantly accepting closure reasons, in terms of the
Pentonville Road exit, it is very handy for the Victoria Line, not so
for the other lines. Indeed it could very well be converted into the
Eastern ticket hall with some extra escaltors and a lift. Long term it
is a prime site for redeveloping even without Thameslink.


Paul Oter wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

One thing to bear in mind is that the Pentonville Road entrance is
manned by FCC staff, as it's the main entrance to KX Thameslink
station. Once the new Thameslink station opens at St. Pancras Midland
Road (or whatever it'll eventually be called) then FCC definitely won't
be staffing Pentonville Road anymore. Thus if it were to remain open LU
would have to staff it, which would be regarded as an added expense. I
think this might tip the balance in favour of it closing, albeit
remaining available as an emergency exit from the KXSP complex and
perhaps also for emergency alighting from Thameslink trains onto the
closed platforms of KX Thameslink.

One possibility, I suppose, it that LU will do something similar to
what they have done at the Met line entrance to Moorgate station: the
ticket office there has closed permanently and the entrance is only
open Mon-Fri until about 8pm. According to the signs, however, it is
available as an emergency exit at all times.

PaulO

Mizter T wrote:
A few points...

MartyJ wrote:

No it is to remain open and apparently that has been guaranteed..

I don't know if you have any solid evidence that the Pentonville Rd
entrance will remain open - AIUI no final decision has been made.
London Travelwatch, in their report to the Secretary of State for
Transport regarding the closure of KX Thameslink station [1], strongly
recommend that the Pentonville Rd entrance remains open (see section
6.11).

London Underground (LU) state they agree with this recommendation, but
then say they "did not have the funding to modify King's Cross
Thameslink station to Underground-only use and that funding would be
subject to Department for Transport agreement."

[1] London Travelwatch report
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/...nt.php?id=2305

For many people on average generally use a zone 1 tube station exit
during peak times?
In the Travelwatch report, they say that during the morning peak there
were 1987 passengers using this exit and 1777 using it as an entrance
in the evening peak (page 6). To me, this doesn't seem that many
people for such a busy station. Also, they don't say in the report if
these are people just exiting the LU bit at KCSP or if they're people
exiting the LU AND definately leaving Pentonville Road. If it's just
people leaving the LU bit, then it's likely that a large proportion of
them are just changing to/from Thameslink.

Have they started fitting out the Midland Road box yet? I went through
it in May and didn't spot any changes.

Stevie wrote:
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/...nt.php?id=2305

For many people on average generally use a zone 1 tube station exit
during peak times?
In the Travelwatch report, they say that during the morning peak there
were 1987 passengers using this exit and 1777 using it as an entrance
in the evening peak (page 6). To me, this doesn't seem that many
people for such a busy station.

Annual usage of KXSP is 77 million. 5,500 entries and exits a day at
peak time plus however many off-peak isn't a *massive* proportion of
this (3-5% depending on weekend and off-peak usage), but it will take
some of the strain.

5,500 peak entries/exits a day puts KX Pentonville Road equivalent to
somewhere like Mornington Crescent or Caledonian Road (depending on the
precise assumptions you make about off-peak traffic. The Pentonville
Road weekday peak-only traffic works out as about half of either
station's total traffic...)

Also, they don't say in the report if
these are people just exiting the LU bit at KCSP or if they're people
exiting the LU AND definately leaving Pentonville Road. If it's just
people leaving the LU bit, then it's likely that a large proportion of
them are just changing to/from Thameslink.

The report states "counts of passengers who use the subway [to
Pentonville Road] to exit/enter the Underground to/from the street" -
ie it doesn't include people interchanging to Thameslink. It would be
interesting to see how they determined this...

Have they started fitting out the Midland Road box yet? I went through
it in May and didn't spot any changes.

I saw orange-vested people while passing through it in May. I think the
tracks are now hoarded off from the rest of the site, which will make
things harder to see. According to the ever-reliable (cough) Wiki, work
starts "this summer" - it would be interesting to hear from anyone
involved whether they've kicked off yet...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Mizter T wrote:

In particular the London
Travelwatch report does highlight the added distance passengers will
have to walk to change between Thameslink and the Victoria and
Picadilly lines (see section 6.9 on page 4).

In essence though given the location of the new station not a lot can
be done about these issues. Unless of course you completely rip up the
whole Underground station complex and start again, in which case you'd
be barking mad!

They could always build the travolator which was deleted from the scheme for
cost reasons.

Mizter T wrote:


London Underground (LU) state they agree with this recommendation, but
then say they "did not have the funding to modify King's Cross
Thameslink station to Underground-only use and that funding would be
subject to Department for Transport agreement."

This I find hard to believe. All they'd need is a couple of fences
securely in place, maybe each with a door for the purpose of emergency
evacuation.

--
Aidan Stanger
http://www.bettercrossrail.co.uk

Aidan Stanger wrote:
London Underground (LU) state they agree with this recommendation, but
then say they "did not have the funding to modify King's Cross
Thameslink station to Underground-only use and that funding would be
subject to Department for Transport agreement."

This I find hard to believe. All they'd need is a couple of fences
securely in place, maybe each with a door for the purpose of emergency
evacuation.


It's possible that if the station were taken over by LUL, Network
Rail's grandfather rights allowing it to operate despite lack of
disabled access and (possibly) modern safety features would no longer
apply - ie it would need to meet the same rules that would apply to a
new Underground station. The modifications for this might be expensive,
requiring either DfT funding or a DfT sponsored derogation from the
rules.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 14 Jul 2006 02:41:38 -0700, John B wrote:

London Underground (LU) state they agree with this recommendation, but
then say they "did not have the funding to modify King's Cross
Thameslink station to Underground-only use and that funding would be
subject to Department for Transport agreement."

This I find hard to believe. All they'd need is a couple of fences
securely in place, maybe each with a door for the purpose of emergency
evacuation.

It's possible that if the station were taken over by LUL, Network
Rail's grandfather rights allowing it to operate despite lack of
disabled access and (possibly) modern safety features would no longer
apply - ie it would need to meet the same rules that would apply to a
new Underground station. The modifications for this might be expensive,
requiring either DfT funding or a DfT sponsored derogation from the
rules.

KXSP will already be fully disabled accessible though. Do the rules
say they have to make EVERY entrance accessible?