[crossposted to uk.transport.london - originally posted on uk.railway]

Alex Hemingway wrote:

Could anyone help me with some information on the fate of Brockley station
during the ELL extension works. I know that there are plans to shut the ELL
for 18 months from 2007 / 2008, but what will happen to the stations from
Brockley onwards on the current mainline? I'm looking to buy a house in
Brockley, and I'm concerned there will be no London Bridge service for an
extended period. Will the mainline services continue to run throughout the
works. In fact, will there be mainline *and* ELL when the ELL opens, or just
ELL?

I've called ELL and Southern, but they both say they will respond in writing
- I was hoping for a more immediate response!


A similar question was last asked on uk.transport.london in september
'05 - unfortunately none of the replies really answered the question
(you can read it for yourself courtesy of the Google Groups archive
[1]).

I understand that both ELL *and* Southern suburban ('metro') services
will call at all stations from West Croydon to New Cross Gate. I
presume there will be a reduction in the number of Southern suburban
trains on these slow lines that go through to London Bridge, but such
services will still exist.

The line between NX Gate and West Croydon will not close - the new ELL
trains will essentially be mainline overground trains, thus they'll be
able to run on these lines. The existing ELL is closing so changes can
be made in order to bring it up to a mainline standard, so the new
trains can use it (signalling systems need to be replaced etc).

I guess there could be extra weekend engineering works on the NX Gate
to West Croydon stretch, but it certainly isn't going to shut.

If anyone has information on how the ELLX phase 1 will affect existing
service patterns south of the river please speak up!


[1] "A different ELLX question" uk.transport.london thread
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....37b3dc8b79d79/

Mizter T wrote:

I guess there could be extra weekend engineering works on the NX Gate
to West Croydon stretch, but it certainly isn't going to shut.

AFAIK the only major engineering works will be just north of NXG where a new
bridge will be built over the mainline. This will presumably require more
than just weekends, but the existing ELL will hopefully still be running to
help people from points south to get into London (although capacity is an
issue). New junctions will be built just south (I think) of NXG, but I can't
see that taking longer than a weekend.

"MIG" wrote

Any such reduction is difficult to justify. This route to London
Bridge already suffers from extreme overcrowding, although it's true
that this is mainly due to short trains, and a slow diversion to
Shoreditch etc is hardly a replacement for a direct service to London
Bridge.

There would be even worse overcrowding on the London Bridge trains, and
empty trains diverting off to the pointless non-destinations served by
the ELLX, only filling up from Surrey Docks etc.

Reopening the ELL into Liverpool Street (which is hardly cramped*)
would have been very useful, and much cheaper than building a whole new
line into the inner suburbs. I've never understood the point of any of
it, but hey, it's an excuse for yet another extended closure of the
ELL.

How many passengers who now have to travel via London Bridge, will have
better journeys to their actual destination by changing to the Jubilee Line
at Canada Water, or to the District or Hammersmith & City at Whitechapel?

Liverpool Street is, as you say, hardly cramped, and since the rebuilding
actually has circulating space for passengers. However, the lines into it
are pretty congested and I don't think it could reasonably take trains off
the ELL until Crossrail takes away quite a few departures. It would, though,
have been better to build Crossrail ten years ago, build the southern part
of ELLX, running into Liverpool Street (using capacity released by
Crossrail), then reopen Broad Street to Dalston, and extend to Highbury &
Islington, as Light Rail (preferably as an isolated section of the DLR),
running to a high level terminus within Liverpool Street station, or to an
underground station below it - in the latter case extending to Bank for
through running to the rest of DLR.

Peter

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:
"MIG" wrote

Any such reduction is difficult to justify. This route to London
Bridge already suffers from extreme overcrowding, although it's true
that this is mainly due to short trains, and a slow diversion to
Shoreditch etc is hardly a replacement for a direct service to London
Bridge.

There would be even worse overcrowding on the London Bridge trains, and
empty trains diverting off to the pointless non-destinations served by
the ELLX, only filling up from Surrey Docks etc.

Reopening the ELL into Liverpool Street (which is hardly cramped*)
would have been very useful, and much cheaper than building a whole new
line into the inner suburbs. I've never understood the point of any of
it, but hey, it's an excuse for yet another extended closure of the
ELL.

How many passengers who now have to travel via London Bridge, will have
better journeys to their actual destination by changing to the Jubilee Line
at Canada Water, or to the District or Hammersmith & City at Whitechapel?

Liverpool Street is, as you say, hardly cramped, and since the rebuilding
actually has circulating space for passengers. However, the lines into it
are pretty congested and I don't think it could reasonably take trains off
the ELL until Crossrail takes away quite a few departures. It would, though,
have been better to build Crossrail ten years ago, build the southern part
of ELLX, running into Liverpool Street (using capacity released by
Crossrail), then reopen Broad Street to Dalston, and extend to Highbury &
Islington, as Light Rail (preferably as an isolated section of the DLR),
running to a high level terminus within Liverpool Street station, or to an
underground station below it - in the latter case extending to Bank for
through running to the rest of DLR.



You've raised a couple of things I hadn't thought of, and yes,
Crossrail providing an alternative destination from East/Essex plus ELL
into Liverpool Street providing an alternative destination from South
would be a very flexible combination, taking advantages of changes in
capacity at Liverpool Street. Almost too perfect. What a shame we
don't seem to have that option with the right timing.

And I completely agree about Light Rail to Dalston etc. Much more
appropriate for moving about that area than diverting trains from the
south.

I wasn't thinking of the Jubilee Line, but it's mainly the Jubilee
east/Docklands that would be reached more easily via the ELL. I was
assuming that people wanting to reach Waterloo, Westminster, Bond
Street etc would do so quicker via London Bridge. District Line ...
maybe if one doesn't like too many changes, but it's a long way round
having to dog's leg as far as Whitechapel. A major destination for
people changing at Whitechapel is Liverpool Street of course.

Whatever the benefits of getting from the south to Stratford, East Ham
etc with less changes, this can't be worth diverting many trains from
an overcrowded route into central London.

Mizter T wrote:
[crossposted to uk.transport.london - originally posted on uk.railway]

Alex Hemingway wrote:

Could anyone help me with some information on the fate of Brockley station
during the ELL extension works. I know that there are plans to shut the ELL
for 18 months from 2007 / 2008, but what will happen to the stations from
Brockley onwards on the current mainline? I'm looking to buy a house in
Brockley, and I'm concerned there will be no London Bridge service for an
extended period. Will the mainline services continue to run throughout the
works. In fact, will there be mainline *and* ELL when the ELL opens, or just
ELL?

I've called ELL and Southern, but they both say they will respond in writing
- I was hoping for a more immediate response!

From other people's answers it seems that you will be fine... If not,
then in Brockley, particularly at the northern end, you really aren't
too far from South Eastern service stations (St Johns and New Cross),
which are a very viable alternative.


On another note, I assume there's no intentions to ever do another
'extension' of the ELL into London Bridge from New Cross Gate,
replacing the Southern service completely? It makes quite a lot of
sense to me, and wouldn't be difficult to do if the ELL trains will be
mainline trains anyway.

"SamB" wrote

On another note, I assume there's no intentions to ever do another
'extension' of the ELL into London Bridge from New Cross Gate,
replacing the Southern service completely? It makes quite a lot of
sense to me, and wouldn't be difficult to do if the ELL trains will be
mainline trains anyway.

I wonder whether there was a missed opportunity, when the Bricklayers Arms
branch closed, to extend the Bakerloo Line, in tunnel to B Arms, then over
the branch to New Cross Gate, possibly projecting to.say, Crystal Palace.

SamB wrote:

On another note, I assume there's no intentions to ever do another
'extension' of the ELL into London Bridge from New Cross Gate,
replacing the Southern service completely? It makes quite a lot of
sense to me, and wouldn't be difficult to do if the ELL trains will be
mainline trains anyway.

You are right, it would not be difficult to replace
mainline trains from South London to London Bridge with
mainline trains from South London to London Bridge.