wrote:
Oh dear! Its complicated isnt it!

I think its become a mute point as I commute between Orpington (zone 6)
and Victoria (zone 1) and I dont think Orpington can take prepay
(although it does have Oyster readers?)

I currently pay £1083 for an annual season ticket, but figured out
that last year I only used the ticket on 135 days and so it cost me £8
per day.

Was just wondering if an annual season ticket was still the cheapest
way?

Difficult call. An SDR to Victoria is £7.20, so you're on the verge of
break-even. It all depends on whether you use it at weekends, whether
you use the Gold Card benefits, how much hassle queuing for SDRs would
be (I don't know how busy the ticket office at Orpington gets...).

You can't use Oyster Prepay at the moment, but I think Southeastern are
committed as part of their franchise to implementing it on all services
within the zonal system (possibly by some time next year?). This might
also affect the balance.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

wrote:

Oh dear! Its complicated isnt it!

Unfortunately so, yes. Thankfully Oyster Pre-Pay will be implemented on
National Rail across London, but not until 2008 at the earliest. This
isn't Mayor Ken's fault, but instead is courtesy of the intransigence
of the private train companies along with the past
indifference/timidity of the Department for Transport, who are
ultimately responsible for ticketing policy on National Rail.


I think its become a mute point as I commute between Orpington (zone 6)
and Victoria (zone 1) and I dont think Orpington can take prepay
(although it does have Oyster readers?)

In your case it is a moot point. Basically there are only a very few
routes where you can use Pre-Pay on National Rail [1] - and south
London doesn't have any.

The Oyster readers that exist on the gates at Orpington do have a
purpose. Oyster cards can also have season Travelcards loaded on them.
Anyone who uses an Oyster card to get in or out of Orpington will have
a weekly or longer Travelcard loaded on that Oyster card.

Thus one can use an Oyster card in it's season Travelcard guise at
Orpington, but *not* in it's Pre-Pay guise.

You too could have your annual Travelcard loaded on an Oyster card
(you'd still benefit from the Gold Card benefits that an annual season
ticket affords). To do this you'd basically have to buy one from a TfL
outlet - i.e. an LU station, a travel information centre (such as that
at Victoria), from the Oyster website or from the Oyster sales line.
There are a few National Rail stations that sell Travelcards on Oyster
- the only Southeastern one I'm aware of is at New Cross.

You wouldn't benefit from any Southeastern Passengers Charter discounts
(for poor performance) if you didn't buy it from Southeastern though.

Given that you buy an all-zone Travelcard, there's no benefit from
buying it on Oyster over buying a paper ticket apart from the
convenience of having an Oyster card (i.e. you don't have to take the
ticket out to put it in the ticket machine).

If, for example, you had a zone 1-3 season Travelcard, the advantage of
Oyster would be that if you're travelling out of your covered zones *on
the Underground* (e.g. going out to Heathrow) it automatically deducts
the required excess fare (i.e. from zone 4 to 6) from your Pre-Pay
balance - so on such a journey an Oyster card would be acting in both
it's Travelcard guise *and* it's Pre-Pay guise. Of course if a zone 1-3
Travelcard holder wanted to go out to Orpington (zone 6) they would
still need to buy a paper ticket extension from a ticket office as
Pre-Pay is not valid on National Rail.

That's probably clear as mud, but I thought I'd explain it all rather
than keep it simple and miss out things.


I currently pay £1083 for an annual season ticket, but figured out
that last year I only used the ticket on 135 days and so it cost me £8
per day.

Was just wondering if an annual season ticket was still the cheapest
way?

I presume you travel by Underground once you get to Victoria, and
perhaps you use the bus in Orpington, hence the need for a Travelcard
as opposed to a straightforward Orpington-London season ticket.

If you're travelling before 0930 on weekdays then I don't think you'll
get a better deal by doing anything else - the standard single
Orpington-London fare is £3.60, the standard return is double that at
£7.20 (the cheap-day return at £4.20 doesn't kick in until after
0930).

If you were travelling after 0930 then buying a cheap-day return plus
using Oyster Pre-Pay for two Underground journeys would work out at
£7.20 a day. There would of course be the hassle factor of having to
buy the cheap-day return every day.

The other option would be to consider buying an Orpington-London rail
season ticket (an annual costs £1216) then using Oyster Pre-Pay once
in town. Links to Pre-Pay fares are below.

Hope something in the epic ramble above might be remotely helpful.


[1] Oyster help answer - Limited Oyster Pre-Pay acceptance on National
Rail
http://snipurl.com/Oyster_Pre_Pay_on_NR

Oyster Pre-Pay fares on Tube/DLR:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick.../tubedlr.shtml

Oyster Pre-Pay fares on buses/trams:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...bustrams.shtml

Paul Corfield wrote:

On 31 Jul 2006 03:07:00 -0700, wrote:

Just been reading the rules about Oyster pre pay and it says that there
is a price cap equal to (or less than ) the cost of a travel card. I
thought travel cards could only be used after 9:30?

You can use Oyster before 09.30 on Pre-Pay. Note that all Oyster cards
have the ability to hold both Travelcard season tickets (7 day and
longer) and also a store of cash in the Pre-Pay part of the card. The
two can work in tandem if you travel beyond your travelcard validity
where Pre-Pay is valid. Your card will automatically auto-extend your
travelcard by deducting value from the pre-pay part of the card on exit.
This is why it is sensible to have some value in the Pre-Pay part of
your card if you normally have a Travelcard season.

With respect to daily capping there are three variables that will
trigger differing forms of cap being applied. The variables are

a) Where you travel - i.e. how many zones for rail. There are no
zones for buses.
b) What modes you use - only bus & tram or bus / tube / dlr / tram
/ interavailable NR services.
c) What time of day / day of the week you travel. Obviously peak
travelcard rates do not apply at weekends, after 09.30 M-F and on Bank
Holidays.

Please note that availability on National Rail services is very
restricted at present.

The caps are as follows :-

For bus use only - the One Day Bus Pass price less 50p = £3
For peak travel on all modes (as above) - the Peak One Day Travelcard
price less 50p
For off peak travel on all modes (as above) - the Off Peak One Day
Travelcard price less 50p

What Oyster will do is keep a running total of all your trips. If, for
example, you make two peak bus trips and then two off peak ones it will
go £1 + £1 + 80p + 80p = £3.60 but no I must cap at £3 so it it only
deducts 20p for the last of the 4 bus rides. If you only kept on using
buses for the rest of the day all subsequent trips would be at no extra
charge.

However if you had done your 4 bus rides and then caught the tube from
Zone 2 to Zone 1 in off peak times the cap would rise to £4.40. If your
tube trip was between 07.00 and 19.00 then the Oyster fare would be £2
taking your running total to £5. However this would automatically be
capped to £4.40 as only £1.40 would be deducted from your card balance.

If you had made tube journeys prior to 09.30 in the morning then your
cap would be set at the higher rate for the Peak One Day Travelcard less
50p which is £5.70 (for Z12 ticket).

It is very important to note that if you travel from Z1 to beyond Z2
then the cap rises to the appropriate value for Z14 or Z16 tickets
depending on what zone you exit the tube or DLR in.

As someone else has additionally pointed out Oyster is clever enough to
compare your running total both with the appropriate cap price but also
with a lower cap (for fewer zones) and the cost of the latest journey
deducted where this may be lower than the cap for a One Day Travelcard
less 50p.

...what happens if I use my Oyster prepay before 9:30, does this cap
still apply? Sounds like an loop hole for using a travel card before
9:30?

See above.

Does anyone know how much a zones 1-6 travel card costs these days?

One Day Peak Travelcard £12.40
One Day Peak Travelcard £ 6.30
7 Day £41.00
Monthly £157.70
Annual £1640.00

Lots more info at

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...er/general.asp
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

HTH


You explain these things with a lot more precision and brevity than I
can manage!

At some point perhaps there should be a utl Oyster faq, or even an
unofficial website. I'll leave such thoughts until it starts getting
dark in the evenings, and I'll probably leave said thoughts alone even
then! It would be a mammoth job - the hardest part would be explaining
everything in crystal clear plain English.

On 1 Aug 2006 06:09:07 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Given that you buy an all-zone Travelcard, [...]

I don't think he does, actually.

asdf wrote:

On 1 Aug 2006 06:09:07 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Given that you buy an all-zone Travelcard, [...]

I don't think he does, actually.


red faced blushes

No, you're quite right, he doesn't. Whoops. That'll teach me fo being a
know-it-all who's skim-reading skills are evidently lacking.

/red faced blushes


Apart from that one rather serious misunderstanding, the factual basis
of my post is correct, but it does rather address the wrong question.
B*&&*^%$.

John B has properly answered the real question elsewhere on this thread.

On 1 Aug 2006 06:34:03 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

[big snip]
You explain these things with a lot more precision and brevity than I
can manage!

On a subject like this you need to take it step by step. I also have
the benefit of having read through the on line training & staff FAQ at
work. That's where my knowledge of the capping stuff comes from. However
real life presents many more twists and turns and there are continued
adjustments like the £5 NR minimum charge that can makes things very
complex indeed.

At some point perhaps there should be a utl Oyster faq, or even an
unofficial website. I'll leave such thoughts until it starts getting
dark in the evenings, and I'll probably leave said thoughts alone even
then! It would be a mammoth job - the hardest part would be explaining
everything in crystal clear plain English.

The real issues with the TfL documentation are that it is too high level
in the Oyster guide and also that real life complexities are brushed
aside as if not warranting explanation. Quite clearly people do want to
know how certain journey types and ticket features work - how else can
they make an informed choice? I find the TfL approach really rather
baffling and even bordering on being patronising.

Still - best of luck with the new Oyster website. ;-)

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Mizter T wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

On 1 Aug 2006 06:34:03 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

[big snip]
You explain these things with a lot more precision and brevity than I
can manage!

On a subject like this you need to take it step by step. I also have
the benefit of having read through the on line training & staff FAQ at
work. That's where my knowledge of the capping stuff comes from. However
real life presents many more twists and turns and there are continued
adjustments like the £5 NR minimum charge that can makes things very
complex indeed.

Slight change of topic - were there ever any plans for such a minimum
charge across the Tube network, so as to encourage people to touch-out
and pay the correct fare?

There are plans for a higher minimum fare to be implemented, yes, although
the date is not set in stone yet.

Robin Mayes wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Slight change of topic - were there ever any plans for such a minimum
charge across the Tube network, so as to encourage people to touch-out
and pay the correct fare?

There are plans for a higher minimum fare to be implemented, yes, although
the date is not set in stone yet.


Out of interest do you have a source for that?

For these purposes I'll call the £5 'minimum fare' which occurs when a
user only touches in or out a penalty.

Omplementing a penalty for those who don't touch-in and touch-out would
add integrity to the Oyster system, though of course it could cause an
element of confusion amongst those passengers who are unwittingly doing
the wrong thing (forgetting to touch out, unable to find the Oyster
reader to touch-out etc).

Once Pre-Pay is implemented across National Rail in London then it'd be
far more open to abuse (i.e. not touching in or out) given the lack of
gates at most stations - so I wonder if such a penalty might go system
wide by then.

The other side of the coin is my wariness of the ability of NR station
ticket offices would properly deal with Oyster problems, such as those
wanted to query the £5 penalty.

Mizter T wrote:
wrote:

Just been reading the rules about Oyster pre pay and it says that there
is a price cap equal to (or less than ) the cost of a travel card. I
thought travel cards could only be used after 9:30?


There are now two types of Day Travelcards; a peak version, for use
before 0930 on weekdays; or the traditional off-peak version, for use
after 0930 on weekdays or all day weekends or public holidays.
(Incidentally both are valid for journeys that start before 0430 the
following day as well.)

Daily price capping on Oyster is similar to - but not the same as - a
Day Travelcard. The principle difference is that Oyster Pre-Pay (or Pay
As You Go) cannot be used on most of the National Rail network in
London. At the moment (2006 prices) the Oyster Pre-Pay daily price cap
will always be 50p cheaper than it's 'equivalent' Day Travelcard.

...what happens if I use my Oyster prepay before 9:30, does this cap
still apply? Sounds like an loop hole for using a travel card before
9:30?

If you use Oyster Pre-Pay before 0930 you'll be charged the appropriate
Tube or bus fare. Any journeys you do before 0930 will not contribute
towards an off-peak cap, but they will contribute towards a peak cap.

Depending upon what journeys you make and when the following situations
can apply:

(1) You don't get capped at all, as you don't make enough journeys and
hence don't pay enough to reach any of the capping levels.

(2) You pay for your pre-0930 morning journey then make enough journeys
after 0930 to qualify for the off-peak cap - only those off-peak
journeys would contribute towards the off-peak cap.

(3) You make several journeys before 0930 along with some afterwards,
in which case you'll qualify for the peak cap. This is unlikely unless
you're travelling around a lot in the morning.

(4) You get capped for making several bus journeys in one day at £3,
plus you pay on top of that for a one or two Tube journeys. This is
only really likely if you make one Tube journey.

The information above does contradict that elsewhere on this thread - I
can assure you that the above is correct.


Does anyone know how much a zones 1-6 travel card costs these days?

£6.30 off-peak, £12.40 peak. All the information is on the tickets
section of the TfL website, see below for more info.


I buy a yearly season ticket, but as I often work from home etc Ive
figured out that it would be cheaper to pay daily if a daily ticket
costs less that £10.

It's quite possible, yes. Perhaps if you could indicate how often you
travel, how you travel (Underground/bus/overground train) and between
which zones you travel then we'd have an idea of what would be
appropriate for you.

Oyster Pre-Pay would be far less helpful if you travel on National Rail
(NR), as it can't currently be used on most routes. For those who do
use NR, the Peak Day Travelcard is one option if travelling before 0930
on weekdays. Another option to consider is buying a single NR ticket in
the morning peak, then buying an off-peak Day Travelcard for use after
0930. For those travelling regularly then a season Travelcard (weekly
or longer) is likely to be the best value - and even in situations
where it's a toss up, then the season Travelcard has the advantage that
you've bought it already whilst buying single tickets every day is a
hassle.


TfL ticket information:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...06/index.shtml

Tube/DLR fares (both Oyster and cash):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick.../tubedlr.shtml

Daily price caps (when travelling on Tube/DLR)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...ubedlr-4.shtml

Daily price cap for bus/tram journeys:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...strams-4.shtml


The whole TfL Fares and Tickets 2006 leaflet can be downloaded as a PDF
he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

For detailed information on daily price capping see page 19.



I know a lot of answers have been given here, but I just want to be
sure of one thing.

If I made one journey of any kind before 0930, and then lots of other
journeys, the only paper travelcard that would cover it all would be a
peak one. I might choose instead to pay a single fare for the first
journey and then get an off-peak travelcard for the rest.

But are we definitely saying that Oyster will treat the first journey
as if you just bought a single fare, and then apply off-peak capping to
the rest of the day's journeys? Or would that first journey of the day
rule out off-peak capping for the whole day?

Your answer implies the former, but I thought that that latter applied
to me when I mistakenly caught my first bus just before 0930. I wish I
could remember the exact figures now.

MIG wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
wrote:

Just been reading the rules about Oyster pre pay and it says that there
is a price cap equal to (or less than ) the cost of a travel card. I
thought travel cards could only be used after 9:30?

There are now two types of Day Travelcards; a peak version, for use
before 0930 on weekdays; or the traditional off-peak version, for use
after 0930 on weekdays or all day weekends or public holidays.
(Incidentally both are valid for journeys that start before 0430 the
following day as well.)

Daily price capping on Oyster is similar to - but not the same as - a
Day Travelcard. The principle difference is that Oyster Pre-Pay (or Pay
As You Go) cannot be used on most of the National Rail network in
London. At the moment (2006 prices) the Oyster Pre-Pay daily price cap
will always be 50p cheaper than it's 'equivalent' Day Travelcard.

...what happens if I use my Oyster prepay before 9:30, does this cap
still apply? Sounds like an loop hole for using a travel card before
9:30?
If you use Oyster Pre-Pay before 0930 you'll be charged the appropriate
Tube or bus fare. Any journeys you do before 0930 will not contribute
towards an off-peak cap, but they will contribute towards a peak cap.

Depending upon what journeys you make and when the following situations
can apply:

(1) You don't get capped at all, as you don't make enough journeys and
hence don't pay enough to reach any of the capping levels.

(2) You pay for your pre-0930 morning journey then make enough journeys
after 0930 to qualify for the off-peak cap - only those off-peak
journeys would contribute towards the off-peak cap.

(3) You make several journeys before 0930 along with some afterwards,
in which case you'll qualify for the peak cap. This is unlikely unless
you're travelling around a lot in the morning.

(4) You get capped for making several bus journeys in one day at £3,
plus you pay on top of that for a one or two Tube journeys. This is
only really likely if you make one Tube journey.

The information above does contradict that elsewhere on this thread - I
can assure you that the above is correct.


Does anyone know how much a zones 1-6 travel card costs these days?
£6.30 off-peak, £12.40 peak. All the information is on the tickets
section of the TfL website, see below for more info.


I buy a yearly season ticket, but as I often work from home etc Ive
figured out that it would be cheaper to pay daily if a daily ticket
costs less that £10.
It's quite possible, yes. Perhaps if you could indicate how often you
travel, how you travel (Underground/bus/overground train) and between
which zones you travel then we'd have an idea of what would be
appropriate for you.

Oyster Pre-Pay would be far less helpful if you travel on National Rail
(NR), as it can't currently be used on most routes. For those who do
use NR, the Peak Day Travelcard is one option if travelling before 0930
on weekdays. Another option to consider is buying a single NR ticket in
the morning peak, then buying an off-peak Day Travelcard for use after
0930. For those travelling regularly then a season Travelcard (weekly
or longer) is likely to be the best value - and even in situations
where it's a toss up, then the season Travelcard has the advantage that
you've bought it already whilst buying single tickets every day is a
hassle.


TfL ticket information:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...06/index.shtml

Tube/DLR fares (both Oyster and cash):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick.../tubedlr.shtml

Daily price caps (when travelling on Tube/DLR)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...ubedlr-4.shtml

Daily price cap for bus/tram journeys:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...strams-4.shtml


The whole TfL Fares and Tickets 2006 leaflet can be downloaded as a PDF
he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

For detailed information on daily price capping see page 19.



I know a lot of answers have been given here, but I just want to be
sure of one thing.

If I made one journey of any kind before 0930, and then lots of other
journeys, the only paper travelcard that would cover it all would be a
peak one. I might choose instead to pay a single fare for the first
journey and then get an off-peak travelcard for the rest.

But are we definitely saying that Oyster will treat the first journey
as if you just bought a single fare, and then apply off-peak capping to
the rest of the day's journeys? Or would that first journey of the day
rule out off-peak capping for the whole day?

The former. It always works out the cheapest combination for the trips
you make on it.

Your answer implies the former, but I thought that that latter applied
to me when I mistakenly caught my first bus just before 0930. I wish I
could remember the exact figures now.

That shouldn't be the case - the capping would only fail to work if
there was an unresolved journey in there somewhere. If all is working
correctly, then for the combo you describe, you'd be charged for both a
peak bus journey (£1) and an off-peak cap (e.g. £4.40 Z1-2).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London