Continuing on the Crossrail theme from the recent thread regarding a
Woolwich Crossrail station, I have some queies regarding Crossrail and
Silvertown.

To set the scene briefly, Crossrail is going to take over the North
London Line alignment between Custom House and North Woolwich - for
full information on this see the Crossrail project page on Dave
Arquati's superb website 'alwaystouchout' [1] - the relevant bit is
under the 'Route' section, specifically 'East: Abbey Wood'.

This is the bit that has me flummoxed...

-----
"Provision is being made in the plans for a future station at
Silvertown, should this ever be required. This would not be on the
current station site, but instead would be further to the west. A DLR
City Airport branch station has been safeguarded very close to here to
provide possible interchange."
-----

I took a detour on a cycle journey I made yesterday to have a look
around, and I just couldn't see how this possible future station would
work out on the ground. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera with me so
there's no pictures to illustrate things.

Multimap of the area - http://tinyurl.com/z4fv9

It's easy to see the location of the possible future DLR station - it'd
be on the diagonal alignment between North Woolwich Rd and Connaught
Rd. It's sandwiched between an older warehouse and a new Travelodge,
but on the ground it's pretty obvious it has been safeguarded.

What I do not understand whatsoever is the possible future Silvertown
Crossrail station. If the new station were to be to the west of the
existing station that'd place it (at least partially) underground - the
line starts a steady incline down into the Connaught tunnel just west
of Silvertown station. The tunnel mouth is just south of Hart Rd.

I guess there could be an underground station on the westernmost part
of the airport, adjacent to Connaught Bridge, but this would involve
completely rebuilding the tunnel to accomodate a 12 car platform and
would be difficult given the proximity of the dock - i.e. it'd be very
expensive.

Or will the Connaught tunnel be rebuilt somewhat when (if) Crossrail
comes - it does have a rather restrictive loading gauge (probably the
wrong terminology - basically it's a tight fit).

The other possible option for a Silvertown Crossrail station would be
to use the existing station site. Problem is whether 12 car platforms
could be fitted it - to the east the alignment is tightly sandwiched
between two roads (Albert Rd and Factory Rd), neither of which have
pavements on the railway side, and I'm not sure if there'd be enough
extra space either side of two running lines to accomodate platforms.

I see the question of Silvertown and Crossrail has come up on here
before - see the last few posts of this 2004 utl thread [2]. There
would be some benefit to a station at Silvertown, but perhaps the
practical problems make it bit of a non-starter.

So can anyone enlighten me as to whether the supposed "Provision [...]
being made [...] for a future station at Silvertown" is just nonsense,
included so as to pacify possible objections, or is it for real - in
which case how would such a station be work out on the ground?


[1] alwaystouchout - Crossrail page
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/1

[2] Google Groups archive - Crossrail at Silvertown discussion
http://tinyurl.com/p54ml

Mizter T wrote:
Continuing on the Crossrail theme from the recent thread regarding a
Woolwich Crossrail station, I have some queies regarding Crossrail and
Silvertown.

To set the scene briefly, Crossrail is going to take over the North
London Line alignment between Custom House and North Woolwich - for
full information on this see the Crossrail project page on Dave
Arquati's superb website 'alwaystouchout' [1] - the relevant bit is
under the 'Route' section, specifically 'East: Abbey Wood'.

This is the bit that has me flummoxed...

-----
"Provision is being made in the plans for a future station at
Silvertown, should this ever be required. This would not be on the
current station site, but instead would be further to the west. A DLR
City Airport branch station has been safeguarded very close to here to
provide possible interchange."
-----

I took a detour on a cycle journey I made yesterday to have a look
around, and I just couldn't see how this possible future station would
work out on the ground. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera with me so
there's no pictures to illustrate things.

Multimap of the area - http://tinyurl.com/z4fv9

It's easy to see the location of the possible future DLR station - it'd
be on the diagonal alignment between North Woolwich Rd and Connaught
Rd. It's sandwiched between an older warehouse and a new Travelodge,
but on the ground it's pretty obvious it has been safeguarded.

What I do not understand whatsoever is the possible future Silvertown
Crossrail station. If the new station were to be to the west of the
existing station that'd place it (at least partially) underground - the
line starts a steady incline down into the Connaught tunnel just west
of Silvertown station. The tunnel mouth is just south of Hart Rd.

I guess there could be an underground station on the westernmost part
of the airport, adjacent to Connaught Bridge, but this would involve
completely rebuilding the tunnel to accomodate a 12 car platform and
would be difficult given the proximity of the dock - i.e. it'd be very
expensive.

Or will the Connaught tunnel be rebuilt somewhat when (if) Crossrail
comes - it does have a rather restrictive loading gauge (probably the
wrong terminology - basically it's a tight fit).

The other possible option for a Silvertown Crossrail station would be
to use the existing station site. Problem is whether 12 car platforms
could be fitted it - to the east the alignment is tightly sandwiched
between two roads (Albert Rd and Factory Rd), neither of which have
pavements on the railway side, and I'm not sure if there'd be enough
extra space either side of two running lines to accomodate platforms.

I see the question of Silvertown and Crossrail has come up on here
before - see the last few posts of this 2004 utl thread [2]. There
would be some benefit to a station at Silvertown, but perhaps the
practical problems make it bit of a non-starter.

So can anyone enlighten me as to whether the supposed "Provision [...]
being made [...] for a future station at Silvertown" is just nonsense,
included so as to pacify possible objections, or is it for real - in
which case how would such a station be work out on the ground?


[1] alwaystouchout - Crossrail page
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/1

[2] Google Groups archive - Crossrail at Silvertown discussion
http://tinyurl.com/p54ml

Not sure if this helps, but the wording used in the non-technical
summary of the Environmental Statement for Crossrail is:
"Passive provision will be made for a new Crossrail station at
Silvertown, should this become desirable following redevelopment of
nearby sites."

The Connaught Tunnel will be "refurbished" for Crossrail trains; what
precisely this involves, I'm not entirely sure (but I think you're right
that it's related to the loading gauge).

Details are so sketchy for both the DLR and Crossrail potential
stations, but it may be that they would not actually be particularly
close to each other; interchange might be on-road between stations a la
Isle of Dogs - Canary Wharf, Heron Quays - Canary Wharf etc.

The mention of redevelopment of nearby sites might also imply that bits
of adjacent land could be handed over as a planning permission condition
in order to make building a Crossrail station easier.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006, Mizter T wrote:

-----
"Provision is being made in the plans for a future station at
Silvertown, should this ever be required. This would not be on the
current station site, but instead would be further to the west. A DLR
City Airport branch station has been safeguarded very close to here to
provide possible interchange."
-----

What I do not understand whatsoever is the possible future Silvertown
Crossrail station. If the new station were to be to the west of the
existing station that'd place it (at least partially) underground - the
line starts a steady incline down into the Connaught tunnel just west of
Silvertown station. The tunnel mouth is just south of Hart Rd.

That would also put the platforms on a slope, which i believe HMRI will
not allow.

The other possible option for a Silvertown Crossrail station would be to
use the existing station site. Problem is whether 12 car platforms could
be fitted it - to the east the alignment is tightly sandwiched between
two roads (Albert Rd and Factory Rd), neither of which have pavements on
the railway side, and I'm not sure if there'd be enough extra space
either side of two running lines to accomodate platforms.

My thought was that the platforms could be extended to the west (since
they'll need to be extended anyway), towards the DLR station; that would
involve taking land from the industrial estate on the south side of the
line and using it to rearrange the formation to make room for platforms
(perhaps by moving the yet-to-be-built up line south a bit and putting an
island in between). You could perhaps even move the whole station west in
this way. You could then connect the Crossrail and DLR stations by taking
another strip of land from the industrial estate and using it for a
walkway, or even putting a walkway on top of the Crossrail line - a
lightweight thing sitting on top of reinforced OHLE gantries.

This whole idea might fall foul of the platforms-on-a-slope problem,
though. Unless extending an existing platform doesn't count, in which case
it might be a clever dodge ...

The 'passive provision' mentioned could be the act of placing the new up
line so that there's room for an island platform, and leaving space for
other station-associated gubbins.

tom

--
For the first few years I ate lunch with he mathematicians. I soon found
that they were more interested in fun and games than in serious work,
so I shifted to eating with the physics table. There I stayed for a
number of years until the Nobel Prize, promotions, and offers from
other companies, removed most of the interesting people. So I shifted
to the corresponding chemistry table where I had a friend. At first I
asked what were the important problems in chemistry, then what important
problems they were working on, or problems that might lead to important
results. One day I asked, "if what they were working on was not important,
and was not likely to lead to important things, they why were they working
on them?" After that I had to eat with the engineers! -- R. W. Hamming

Mizter T wrote:

Continuing on the Crossrail theme from the recent thread regarding a
Woolwich Crossrail station, I have some queies regarding Crossrail and
Silvertown.

To set the scene briefly, Crossrail is going to take over the North
London Line alignment between Custom House and North Woolwich - for
full information on this see the Crossrail project page on Dave
Arquati's superb website 'alwaystouchout' [1] - the relevant bit is
under the 'Route' section, specifically 'East: Abbey Wood'.

This is the bit that has me flummoxed...

-----
"Provision is being made in the plans for a future station at
Silvertown, should this ever be required. This would not be on the
current station site, but instead would be further to the west. A DLR
City Airport branch station has been safeguarded very close to here to
provide possible interchange."
-----
(snip)
What I do not understand whatsoever is the possible future Silvertown
Crossrail station. If the new station were to be to the west of the
existing station that'd place it (at least partially) underground - the
line starts a steady incline down into the Connaught tunnel just west
of Silvertown station. The tunnel mouth is just south of Hart Rd.

My guess is it's a misprint. There's plenty of space to construct a
Silvertown Crossrail station to the EAST of the existing station. This
location has straight track and constructing a station there would be
relatively cheap. It is still very near LCY airport, and the land there
has great long term development potential, for although the sugar
refinery is unlikely to move any time soon, it's eventually likely to
move to a sugar producing area (as requirements for cane and beet sugar
refining aren't all that different). When this happens, the land's
proximity to LCY airport (which is likely to be the only one in Britain
with scheduled supersonic flights*) will make it extremely valuable for
office development.


* The era of large supersonic aircraft is over, and future ones are
likely to have between ten and twenty seats. Landing fees at Heathrow
and Gatwick will be much higher per plane, as they will be dominated by
superjumbos. LCY is quicker to get to from London than the rest of the
airports are. STOL capability should not be a problem for supersonic
aircraft, as they have a very high power to weight ratio.

--
Aidan Stanger
http://www.bettercrossrail.co.uk

Aidan Stanger wrote:

* The era of large supersonic aircraft is over, and future ones are
likely to have between ten and twenty seats. Landing fees at Heathrow
and Gatwick will be much higher per plane, as they will be dominated by
superjumbos. LCY is quicker to get to from London than the rest of the
airports are. STOL capability should not be a problem for supersonic
aircraft, as they have a very high power to weight ratio.

Only if they're a lot quieter will they be allowed at LCY! But I'm sure
your assuming that!

Aidan Stanger wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

Continuing on the Crossrail theme from the recent thread regarding a
Woolwich Crossrail station, I have some queies regarding Crossrail and
Silvertown.

To set the scene briefly, Crossrail is going to take over the North
London Line alignment between Custom House and North Woolwich - for
full information on this see the Crossrail project page on Dave
Arquati's superb website 'alwaystouchout' [1] - the relevant bit is
under the 'Route' section, specifically 'East: Abbey Wood'.

This is the bit that has me flummoxed...

-----
"Provision is being made in the plans for a future station at
Silvertown, should this ever be required. This would not be on the
current station site, but instead would be further to the west. A DLR
City Airport branch station has been safeguarded very close to here to
provide possible interchange."
-----
(snip)
What I do not understand whatsoever is the possible future Silvertown
Crossrail station. If the new station were to be to the west of the
existing station that'd place it (at least partially) underground - the
line starts a steady incline down into the Connaught tunnel just west
of Silvertown station. The tunnel mouth is just south of Hart Rd.

My guess is it's a misprint. There's plenty of space to construct a
Silvertown Crossrail station to the EAST of the existing station. This
location has straight track and constructing a station there would be
relatively cheap. It is still very near LCY airport, and the land there
has great long term development potential, for although the sugar
refinery is unlikely to move any time soon, it's eventually likely to
move to a sugar producing area (as requirements for cane and beet sugar
refining aren't all that different). When this happens, the land's
proximity to LCY airport (which is likely to be the only one in Britain
with scheduled supersonic flights*) will make it extremely valuable for
office development.


* The era of large supersonic aircraft is over, and future ones are
likely to have between ten and twenty seats. Landing fees at Heathrow
and Gatwick will be much higher per plane, as they will be dominated by
superjumbos. LCY is quicker to get to from London than the rest of the
airports are. STOL capability should not be a problem for supersonic
aircraft, as they have a very high power to weight ratio.


This is rather similar to a key argument against the first TGV line
between Paris and Lyon - it was envisaged that there would be dozens of
STOL airports throughout Paris (even on rooftops) offering flights to
other other cities within a few hundred km (such as Lyon).

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Aidan Stanger wrote:

* The era of large supersonic aircraft is over, and future ones are
likely to have between ten and twenty seats. Landing fees at Heathrow
and Gatwick will be much higher per plane, as they will be dominated by
superjumbos. LCY is quicker to get to from London than the rest of the
airports are. STOL capability should not be a problem for supersonic
aircraft, as they have a very high power to weight ratio.

That's certainly something that Lockheed Martin think ...

http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil...0727_1_n.shtml

.... has 'a "100 per cent chance" of going ahead'. Other companies too, in
the US and Europe. We'll see.

tom

--
ONE IN EIGHT GO MAD

Dave Arquati wrote:

Aidan Stanger wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

Continuing on the Crossrail theme from the recent thread regarding a
Woolwich Crossrail station, I have some queies regarding Crossrail and
Silvertown.

To set the scene briefly, Crossrail is going to take over the North
London Line alignment between Custom House and North Woolwich - for
full information on this see the Crossrail project page on Dave
Arquati's superb website 'alwaystouchout' [1] - the relevant bit is
under the 'Route' section, specifically 'East: Abbey Wood'.

This is the bit that has me flummoxed...

-----
"Provision is being made in the plans for a future station at
Silvertown, should this ever be required. This would not be on the
current station site, but instead would be further to the west. A DLR
City Airport branch station has been safeguarded very close to here to
provide possible interchange."
-----
(snip)
What I do not understand whatsoever is the possible future Silvertown
Crossrail station. If the new station were to be to the west of the
existing station that'd place it (at least partially) underground - the
line starts a steady incline down into the Connaught tunnel just west
of Silvertown station. The tunnel mouth is just south of Hart Rd.

My guess is it's a misprint. There's plenty of space to construct a
Silvertown Crossrail station to the EAST of the existing station. This
location has straight track and constructing a station there would be
relatively cheap. It is still very near LCY airport, and the land there
has great long term development potential, for although the sugar
refinery is unlikely to move any time soon, it's eventually likely to
move to a sugar producing area (as requirements for cane and beet sugar
refining aren't all that different). When this happens, the land's
proximity to LCY airport (which is likely to be the only one in Britain
with scheduled supersonic flights*) will make it extremely valuable for
office development.


* The era of large supersonic aircraft is over, and future ones are
likely to have between ten and twenty seats. Landing fees at Heathrow
and Gatwick will be much higher per plane, as they will be dominated by
superjumbos. LCY is quicker to get to from London than the rest of the
airports are. STOL capability should not be a problem for supersonic
aircraft, as they have a very high power to weight ratio.


This is rather similar to a key argument against the first TGV line
between Paris and Lyon - it was envisaged that there would be dozens of
STOL airports throughout Paris (even on rooftops) offering flights to
other other cities within a few hundred km (such as Lyon).

In what way is it similar? It would have almost the opposite effect, as
supersonic STOL aircraft taking the slots would displace the shorter
distance aircraft from LCY. There almost certainly won't be dozens of
STOL airports in the area, though there's a good case for having some
airports to accommodate the growth when LCY reaches capacity (and the
displaced traffic when supersonics take over). North Weald would be very
good for this purpose if it doesn't get built over first. Southend and
Biggin Hill are also quite well suited.
--
Aidan Stanger
http://www.bettercrossrail.co.uk