"Barry Salter" wrote in message

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:50:51 +0100, "Nigel Pendse"
wrote:

I wonder if Oyster can be used on Thameslink (aka FCC) between
Wimbledon and Farringdon? It's obviously allowed on the Tube
between the same stations, and the same Oyster card readers/barriers
apply regardless of which train is taken, so the system won't know
which route was followed. But would a ticket inspector on the FCC
train regard it as a non-valid fare?

Nope. The list of NR routes on which PAYG Oyster is currently valid is
currently as follows:

Amersham - Marylebone
Finsbury Park - Kings Cross/Moorgate
Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston (except Kilburn High Road & Sth
Hampstead) Kentish Town - Moorgate/Elephant & Castle/London Bridge
Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central/Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters
(but not intermediately)
Richmond - Gunnersbury
Stratford - Canning Town
Stratford - Liverpool Street
Upminster - Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street via Barking (but not at
Forest Gate or Maryland)
West Ruislip/South Ruislip - Marylebone (but not intermediately)

As such, you'd be liable to a Penalty Fare if you did Wimbledon -
Farringdon on FCC.

How this would be policed solely through the barriers remains to be
seen, however...

It's funny that they allow West Ruislip/South Ruislip - Marylebone but
not Wimbledon - Farringdon, as these are both examples of identical
Tube/Rail journeys where the Rail route happens to be quicker/more
direct, but is otherwise no different. In the Chiltern case, of course,
different barrier lines are used at Marylebone (so they can detect which
train was used), but with the Farringdon example, the same barrier line
applies regardless of route. The only way that a smart barrier could
detect which route was used would be through journey time -- it would
typically (but not always) be much quicker on the Thameslink route.

Ang Gilham wrote:

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:50:51 +0100, "Nigel Pendse"
wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:
*Very important point*
Oyster Pre-Pay is not valid on National Rail (i.e. overground trains)
apart from a few exceptions [1]. This is set to change but not for
another couple of years at least.

I wonder if Oyster can be used on Thameslink (aka FCC) between Wimbledon
and Farringdon? It's obviously allowed on the Tube between the same
stations, and the same Oyster card readers/barriers apply regardless of
which train is taken, so the system won't know which route was followed.
But would a ticket inspector on the FCC train regard it as a non-valid
fare?

Judging by what happened to me on the North London Line last week,
you'd be judged a non-valid fare. I was on my way back from Lord's to
Kew via the Bakerloo and NLL, and there was a huge Silverlink and
British Transport Police presence at Willesden Junction; when my
prepay Oyster was read, I was made to go out through the barriers, get
a single ticket and then come back in. Given that TfL will deduct a
price equivalent to that of a one-day travelcard from the Oyster card,
the fact that I can't use the bloody thing as a travelcard on a route
that I'm extremely likely to use is becoming more and more of a pain.

Angela

It might be annoying, but the fact is that Oyster Pre-Pay is, as I
said, only valid on a very limited number of National Rail routes - see
the link below for the full list [1].

This is not TfL's fault - they have been pushing to get Oyster Pre-Pay
valid on National Rail routes for a long time - it's because the
intransigence of the Train Operating Companies (TOCs), and the
SRA/Department for Transports lack of willingness to change this.

However TfL's lobbying has paid off - if you read this press release
[2] you'll see that in a couple of years we should have Pre-Pay
acceptance across the National Rail network in London.

And the good news for users of the North London Line is that this may
well be implemented even sooner, as TfL is taking control of the NLL in
2007 (it's a bit more complicated than that - see the press release
[3]) and they plan to make Oyster Pre-Pay available on that route.

So whilst you'll just have to put up with it being a pain in the
proverbial for the moment things are changing.


[1] Oyster help answer - Limited Oyster Pre-Pay acceptance on National
Rail
http://snipurl.com/Oyster_Pre_Pay_on_NR

[2] TfL press release - Transport Secretary and Mayor of London
announce new Oyster deal
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=776

[3] TfL press release - Mayor welcomes Tfl control of first London
passenger rail services
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=690

Ang Gilham wrote:

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:04:12 +0100, Barry Salter
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:50:51 +0100, "Nigel Pendse"
wrote:

I wonder if Oyster can be used on Thameslink (aka FCC) between Wimbledon
and Farringdon? It's obviously allowed on the Tube between the same
stations, and the same Oyster card readers/barriers apply regardless of
which train is taken, so the system won't know which route was followed.
But would a ticket inspector on the FCC train regard it as a non-valid
fare?

Nope. The list of NR routes on which PAYG Oyster is currently valid is
currently as follows:
snip
As such, you'd be liable to a Penalty Fare if you did Wimbledon -
Farringdon on FCC.

How this would be policed solely through the barriers remains to be
seen, however...

Hmmm. Via the barriers probably isn't doable, but my pet hate: the
ticket inspector with a hand-held Oyster card reader would certainly
get you on the train.


Perhaps it's a pet hate of yours but if someone did this it would count
as fare evasion. Plus I have found FCC to be keener than other TOCs
when it comes to having on-board ticket inspectors.

Basically it comes down to thinking ahead - if you consider it probably
that you'll use National Rail during the course of a days travels
around London, you should buy a paper Day Travelcard at the beginning
of that day and not use Pre-Pay whatsoever.

Judging whether this is worthwhile when you're plans are uncertain
might be difficult, but bear in mind before the advent of daily capping
on Pre-Pay (in February 2005) it was a judgement that every traveller
in London had to make - i.e. whether to buy a Day Travelcard or pay
cash for each journey.

Nigel Pendse wrote:

"Barry Salter" wrote:

As such, you'd be liable to a Penalty Fare if you did Wimbledon -
Farringdon on FCC.

How this would be policed solely through the barriers remains to be
seen, however...

(snip)
The only way that a smart barrier could detect which route was used would be through
journey time -- it would typically (but not always) be much quicker on the Thameslink
route.

I don't think it can be policed through the barriers - and relying on a
time difference wouldnt work as there are x number of variables that
might mean FCC journeys take longer (delays on the route, passenger
misses their train as they're on the wrong platform etc etc).

However as I said elsewhere on this thread my experience is that FCC
are quite keen on on-board ticket inspections - so a passenger could
end up £20 lighter should they try and use Pre-Pay on FCC/Thameslink
from Wimbledon to Farringdon.

Nigel Pendse wrote:
"Barry Salter" wrote in message

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:50:51 +0100, "Nigel Pendse"
wrote:

I wonder if Oyster can be used on Thameslink (aka FCC) between
Wimbledon and Farringdon? It's obviously allowed on the Tube
between the same stations, and the same Oyster card readers/barriers
apply regardless of which train is taken, so the system won't know
which route was followed. But would a ticket inspector on the FCC
train regard it as a non-valid fare?

Nope. The list of NR routes on which PAYG Oyster is currently valid is
currently as follows:

Amersham - Marylebone
Finsbury Park - Kings Cross/Moorgate
Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston (except Kilburn High Road & Sth
Hampstead) Kentish Town - Moorgate/Elephant & Castle/London Bridge
Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central/Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters
(but not intermediately)
Richmond - Gunnersbury
Stratford - Canning Town
Stratford - Liverpool Street
Upminster - Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street via Barking (but not at
Forest Gate or Maryland)
West Ruislip/South Ruislip - Marylebone (but not intermediately)

As such, you'd be liable to a Penalty Fare if you did Wimbledon -
Farringdon on FCC.

How this would be policed solely through the barriers remains to be
seen, however...

It's funny that they allow West Ruislip/South Ruislip - Marylebone but
not Wimbledon - Farringdon, as these are both examples of identical
Tube/Rail journeys where the Rail route happens to be quicker/more
direct, but is otherwise no different. In the Chiltern case, of course,
different barrier lines are used at Marylebone (so they can detect which
train was used), but with the Farringdon example, the same barrier line
applies regardless of route. The only way that a smart barrier could
detect which route was used would be through journey time -- it would
typically (but not always) be much quicker on the Thameslink route.

The Ruislips to Marylebone is an oddity, because it's valid on PAYG but
*not* for paper Tube single tickets. That's also true for Harrow &
Wealdstone to Kenton (I think), and the reverse policy applies to the
entire North London Line and the West London Line as far south as West
Brompton. It's a bit of a mess, really...

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:

Nigel Pendse wrote:

(snip)

It's funny that they allow West Ruislip/South Ruislip - Marylebone but
not Wimbledon - Farringdon, as these are both examples of identical
Tube/Rail journeys where the Rail route happens to be quicker/more
direct, but is otherwise no different. In the Chiltern case, of course,
different barrier lines are used at Marylebone (so they can detect which
train was used), but with the Farringdon example, the same barrier line
applies regardless of route. The only way that a smart barrier could
detect which route was used would be through journey time -- it would
typically (but not always) be much quicker on the Thameslink route.

The Ruislips to Marylebone is an oddity, because it's valid on PAYG but
*not* for paper Tube single tickets. That's also true for Harrow &
Wealdstone to Kenton (I think), and the reverse policy applies to the
entire North London Line and the West London Line as far south as West
Brompton. It's a bit of a mess, really...


If you're going from H&W to Kenton and buying a paper ticket then the
fare is set by the National Rail TOC - i.e. Silverlink. AIUI this is
for historical reasons - in days gone by a much longer stretch of the
north end of the Bakerloo lines had it's fares set by National Rail/
British Rail - I think it might have been from Queens Park up to H&W.
I'm not quite sure what happens if you buy a single from H&W to
Elephant and Castle - is it a H&W to Kenton fare bolted on to a LU
zonal fare?

Pre-Pay is also valid on Silverlink from H&W to Euston, either on the
stopping Metro trains or on the non-stop County trains. I travelled
this way once during the rush hour and arrived at a platform on western
side of Euston which it would seem is only used by Silverlink during
the rush hour - and after keeping my eyes peeled I spotted a lone
Oyster reader (without any associated signage) strapped to a column. It
would've been pretty easy to miss.

Anyway this is also a route where paper Tube tickets are not valid -
not least because I don't think you can get a normal zonal Tube ticket
from H&W to points south (see above query).


Lastly I see you're now referring to Oyster Pre-Pay as Oyster PAYG - I
guess as this is the terminology that TfL has adopted perhaps I should
adopt it too when posting here. It is somewhat more self-explanatory,
and of course is a term that's in common use courtesy of mobile phones.
I presume that the term Pre-Pay continues to be used internally on
ticketing systems, but UIVMM it's also still used in customer facing
situations such as on self-service ticket machines and on the blue
signage that accompanies Oyster readers ("Pre Pay users touch in here"
or something similar).

Thus TfL's flagship ticketing product appears to have a bit of an
identity crisis - given that there's already a good deal of public
confusion about the system, it should at least have a clear single name.