Paul Corfield wrote:

On 19 Aug 2006 17:18:19 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Joe Patrick ty ped


I seem to remember reading that during certain times, all stops operate
by request, but I can't find such information on TfL's Buses site.

But on my recent visit to London, I was observing buses at a compulsory
stop in Holborn - all Arriva buses simply sailed past the stop (yes,
those buses *Do* stop there), and all (former) Stagecoach buses did stop.

Are all stops now request stops 24Hr/day, or are some companies
enforcing the rules more strictly than others?

Compliance with this rule is decidedly haphazard. I think it is
something that needs to be sorted out - especially as there can be so
many buses at stops that if they did not queue up and wait their turn it
is impossible for people to hail the bus they want. This is particularly
true if it is the last bus that then decides to whizz past everything
already at the stop.

Buses form an orderly queue in Hong Kong so that every bus lines up at
its stop. This can cause considerable delays in you are on a very busy
corridor but it is extremely rare that people miss a bus in HK if they
are in a queue or at a stop - the bus will pull in. I have to say it is
very reassuring; in London we have the worst of all options as it is a
complete lottery.


Yes, whilst I make sure the driver of the bus semi-hidden behind other
buses stops and lets me on I'm aware others don't necessariy have my
mobility (or menacing glare!) and in such a situation I've seen buses
whizz past passengers who wanted to get on them.

That said I'm not sure how well the "considerable delays" would go down
here should they all queue up ala Hong Kong. One bus overtaking others
at a stop does mean that the load of passengers gets dispersed somewhat
amongst all the buses, rather than the front one ending up crammed.
Nontheless drivers could be a bit more considerate though.

Phil Clark wrote:

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:13:30 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

I'm very surprised by the comment about Newcastle. The only compulsory
stops I can think of are in bus stations - which is a bit obvious
anyway. Having been brought up there I always stuck my hand out for a
bus - regardless of operator. Perhaps the desperate search for
passengers brought on by deregulation has changed behaviours in that
buses will stop to see if anyone wants to board a bus rather than
running the risk of leaving people behind?

It's a while since I lived in Newcastle, and a couple of years since I
visited, but my recollection is that all stops are request stops.
However, bus drivers were capable of noticing passengers at the stop
and slowing down anyway - you often had to back away from the kerb if
you didn't want the wrong bus to stop.

Paul C - so you're a geordie then. I've an affinity for the Toon, it's
a fascinating place.

My comments regarding the non-hailing of buses up there shouldn't be
taken as authoratative - but Phil's recollection does back up what I
remember seeing - drivers seemed to stop if you looked at all likely
like you wanted to catch their bus. I guess as a result of that
people's behaviour when waiting at stops could thus have changed - why
hail a bus if it's going to stop anyway. Like Phil I also remember
people stepping back from the kerb so the wrong bus wouldn't stop.

I have seen a sort of similar thing happen in London - at more remote
stops, on hoppa style 'all around the houses' bus routes or night buses
out in the suburbs - where drivers slow down at request stops even if
no-one's definitely hailing a bus, but I think that's more out of
courtesy to give waiting passengers (who might be in a
daydream/reading/drunk) a chance to register there's a bus approaching.

Back to the north east for a moment - you might be amused to hear that
Nexus (the name the Tyne & Wear PTE now uses) along with the bus
companies developed a special 'Superoute' brand for services that
"deliver frequent, high quality services along key routes" [1]. It was
a name which entertained me given the frequency of these supposed
Superoutes which are "guaranteed to run at least every 30 minutes"
during the day - not quite so 'Super' IMO! To be fair many did run more
frequently than that during the day, but nontheless I don't think TfL
wouldn't describe a half-hourly service as frequent.

I've always treated London bus-stops as Request, in fact I didn't
realise there were still compulsory stops, apart from terminals. But
then I've always done most of my London bus travelling in and around
Kingston and I'm not sure if suburban bus routes are run the same way
as central London.

The bus stop sign indicates what type of stop it is.
Red roundel on white background - compulsory stop.
White roundel on red background - request stop.

However unless you're the type of person who's particularly keen on
engineering a confrontation so you can get into a lather of righteous
outrage at how 'the system doesn't work' then it's best to treat every
stop as a request stop.


[1] http://www.superoute.com/service.htm

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
Joe Patrick ty ped


I seem to remember reading that during certain times, all stops operate
by request, but I can't find such information on TfL's Buses site.

But on my recent visit to London, I was observing buses at a compulsory
stop in Holborn - all Arriva buses simply sailed past the stop (yes,
those buses *Do* stop there), and all (former) Stagecoach buses did stop.

Are all stops now request stops 24Hr/day, or are some companies
enforcing the rules more strictly than others?

IME if you do not treat all bus stops as request stops all the time, you
will either miss your bus or your stop.

My partner was on a bus that did not stop as it passed the bus station
at Harrow on the Hill. He had intended to change buses there, assumed
the bus would stop and had a nasty shock & long walk.

Night Buses treat all stops as request stops anyway.

My experience of catching night buses once they've left central London
is that you have to practically run out into the road and wave your arms
around to get them to stop - trying to catch the N9 or N10 at the Albert
Hall heading towards Hammersmith is a bit of a mission, because they
travel so fast that you need to start "requesting" as soon as you can
make out the route number.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:42:26 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
There has been a thinning out of compulsory stops but they exist all
over London and are not just a central London item. I'd imagine most of
the stops in Central Kingston would be compulsory - white background
with red roundel rather than request - red background and white roundel
on the flag. I'd also say main stops in places like Surbiton, Raynes
Park etc would be compulsory ones too.

Yes, they are. I've only once been told off for sticking my hand out
for a bus, and that was in Berlin. I only did it because it was going
to - and did - stop in the wrong place, not very Teutonic. My German
and level of consciousness (it was a night bus!) didn't allow me to
point out the error of his ways.

It does help to adapt your behaviour to where you are, and a little
observation will show that in the evening in Dublin you have to throw
yourself into the road to get a bus to stop, although the drivers are
usually pleasantly friendly if you manage to board one. On the other
hand, in Paris and Lisbon a quick tap on the front door and they'll
let you in almost anywhere near the stop. In Paris at least, all
stops are request, with drivers applying common sense, and saying
"Bonjour" when you get on. Nice! As you'd expect, in Zurich it works
exactly as (and exactly when) it should.

Richard.

On 20 Aug 2006 05:20:13 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

Phil Clark wrote:

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:13:30 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

I'm very surprised by the comment about Newcastle. The only compulsory
stops I can think of are in bus stations - which is a bit obvious
anyway. Having been brought up there I always stuck my hand out for a
bus - regardless of operator. Perhaps the desperate search for
passengers brought on by deregulation has changed behaviours in that
buses will stop to see if anyone wants to board a bus rather than
running the risk of leaving people behind?

It's a while since I lived in Newcastle, and a couple of years since I
visited, but my recollection is that all stops are request stops.
However, bus drivers were capable of noticing passengers at the stop
and slowing down anyway - you often had to back away from the kerb if
you didn't want the wrong bus to stop.

Paul C - so you're a geordie then. I've an affinity for the Toon, it's
a fascinating place.

Yes although most cannot tell from the accent. It's an interesting game
to play with people who don't know my background.

Back to the north east for a moment - you might be amused to hear that
Nexus (the name the Tyne & Wear PTE now uses) along with the bus
companies developed a special 'Superoute' brand for services that
"deliver frequent, high quality services along key routes" [1]. It was
a name which entertained me given the frequency of these supposed
Superoutes which are "guaranteed to run at least every 30 minutes"
during the day - not quite so 'Super' IMO! To be fair many did run more
frequently than that during the day, but nontheless I don't think TfL
wouldn't describe a half-hourly service as frequent.

[1] http://www.superoute.com/service.htm

I find very little about the Tyne and Wear network amusing these days. I
keep a close eye on developments. I commented on all of the service
proposals and was even invited in to "interview" the top man at what is
now Stagecoach Newcastle but PTE Buses then as well as the service
planning team. I was amazed they took time out to talk to me but they
did - I ended up working for them in designing routes that did,
amazingly, survive the onslaught of deregulation.

The loss of the integrated network in Tyne and Wear is, IMO, a travesty
given how well it worked - with perhaps the cross river issue at
Gateshead being something that was perhaps done a little too brutally.
There are fragments of it remaining today but there has been so much
decline that I don't think it will ever be restored. Stagecoach, Go
Ahead and Arriva continue to cut their networks back - recent and
announced changes make a mockery of the Superoute maps as half the
services have changed. Apparently calling your buses "Red Arrows",
"Magic Roundabout" and other such names is thrilling beyond belief
despite the fact you've just inflicted yet another round of cuts on poor
passengers who rely on your services - well done Mr Huntley of Go Ahead
group.

As you say there is nothing very super about the Superoute service
specification but given that it is simply a branding exercise for the
busiest routes then that is hardly a surprise. Most of the routes are
commercial though which shows some money can still be made and that is
in very sharp contrast to even other metropolitan areas never mind
county towns or rural areas. Nonetheless it is getting very tough for
the big groups to maintain such services in the North East as it has
good roads and the highest growth in car ownership in the country. I
fear a once great network will end up a shambles like almost everywhere
else. I am also concerned that the government will force the
privatisation of the Metro system to fund things like rolling stock
replacement and infrastructure renewal. That will be the final nail in
the coffin for the Metro system which is a mere shadow of its former
self - a 6 minute headway when we used to have a train every 3 minutes.

What is most telling in terms of the loss of patronage is how many
routes that once needed double decks at high frequencies can now cope
with medium sized single decks at lower frequencies. The drop in the
quality of the evening and Sunday network in T&W is again in marked
contrast to where the expansion is going in London.

No wonder local authorities and the PTEs want reregulation.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

I'm very surprised by the comment about Newcastle. The only compulsory
stops I can think of are in bus stations - which is a bit obvious
anyway.

In Milton Keynes the drivers must be psychic - the majority of
passengers seem not to signal for the bus to stop *in hail and ride
areas* - standing and looking like you are waiting for a bus seems
enough.

In German cities all stops tend to be compulsory stops - the bus will
stop unless you clearly signal it *not* to. This is far better in city
centres, where the irresponsible overtaking of buses by buses causes
people to miss their correct bus all the time.

Neil

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
On 20 Aug 2006 05:20:13 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:
Paul C - so you're a geordie then. I've an affinity for the Toon, it's
a fascinating place.

Yes although most cannot tell from the accent. It's an interesting game
to play with people who don't know my background.
Yes, I can play that game, too! :-)

Back to the north east for a moment - you might be amused to hear that
Nexus (the name the Tyne & Wear PTE now uses) along with the bus
companies developed a special 'Superoute' brand for services that
"deliver frequent, high quality services along key routes" [1]. It was
a name which entertained me given the frequency of these supposed
Superoutes which are "guaranteed to run at least every 30 minutes"
during the day - not quite so 'Super' IMO!
Welcome to the world of bus travel outside Greater London.

To be fair many did run more
frequently than that during the day, but nontheless I don't think TfL
wouldn't describe a half-hourly service as frequent.

[1] http://www.superoute.com/service.htm

I find very little about the Tyne and Wear network amusing these days.
Which is a real pity, given that for a time it had the best public
transport network in provincial Britain.

My connection with the place was from 1981 until 1985, so I really did
get to see the "Golden Age", with the Metro coming on stream, TransFares
making multiple stage journeys easier and cheaper and full integration
of NGT and United (and other) services with PTE ones.

Deregulation swept away much of what was achieved but it's worth
pointing out that TWPTE's investment in a rail-based system at least
gave them a "legacy". By contrast, SYPTE's investment in just
subsidised fares was almost destroyed at a stroke.

The loss of the integrated network in Tyne and Wear is, IMO, a travesty
given how well it worked - with perhaps the cross river issue at
Gateshead being something that was perhaps done a little too brutally.
Funnily enough, I almost made exactly that comment above, then left it
out! Great minds think alike!

To return South, we've just spent a lovely few days in Sussex, including
my first visit to Brighton for perhaps 20 years. The Brighton 7 Hove
bus network is certainly bright and shiny and buses were everywhere,
almost ubiquitous. However, the usual spectre of drastic service
reductions outside daytime hours was there as it is everywhere else.
As for rural operation, a bus journey time of 2 1/2 hours from Arundel
to Brighton just sent us heading for the car!

Apparently calling your buses "Red Arrows",
I thin k London was guilty of *that* though! (Admittedly though Lt's
red Arrow network meant something. I'm surprised it's so vanished to
be honest, with the renaissance of bus travel in London.

I am also concerned that the government will force the
privatisation of the Metro system to fund things like rolling stock
replacement and infrastructure renewal. That will be the final nail in
the coffin for the Metro system which is a mere shadow of its former
self - a 6 minute headway when we used to have a train every 3 minutes.
I didn't realise that that had happened.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:30:00 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
On 20 Aug 2006 05:20:13 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:
Paul C - so you're a geordie then. I've an affinity for the Toon, it's
a fascinating place.

Yes although most cannot tell from the accent. It's an interesting game
to play with people who don't know my background.
Yes, I can play that game, too! :-)

Hmmm - not another Geordie in disguise?

Back to the north east for a moment - you might be amused to hear that
Nexus (the name the Tyne & Wear PTE now uses) along with the bus
companies developed a special 'Superoute' brand for services that
"deliver frequent, high quality services along key routes" [1]. It was
a name which entertained me given the frequency of these supposed
Superoutes which are "guaranteed to run at least every 30 minutes"
during the day - not quite so 'Super' IMO!
Welcome to the world of bus travel outside Greater London.

Yes I know but I still think I am allowed to be upset about it.

To be fair many did run more
frequently than that during the day, but nontheless I don't think TfL
wouldn't describe a half-hourly service as frequent.

[1] http://www.superoute.com/service.htm

I find very little about the Tyne and Wear network amusing these days.
Which is a real pity, given that for a time it had the best public
transport network in provincial Britain.

My connection with the place was from 1981 until 1985, so I really did
get to see the "Golden Age", with the Metro coming on stream, TransFares
making multiple stage journeys easier and cheaper and full integration
of NGT and United (and other) services with PTE ones.

Yes - oh happy days of nice new buses, proper interchanges and really
fast and reliable travel across the county with barely a traffic jam
anywhere. They had virtually disappeared once Metro was in full swing.

Deregulation swept away much of what was achieved but it's worth
pointing out that TWPTE's investment in a rail-based system at least
gave them a "legacy". By contrast, SYPTE's investment in just
subsidised fares was almost destroyed at a stroke.

Yes agreed and that is an important point.

To return South, we've just spent a lovely few days in Sussex, including
my first visit to Brighton for perhaps 20 years. The Brighton 7 Hove
bus network is certainly bright and shiny and buses were everywhere,
almost ubiquitous. However, the usual spectre of drastic service
reductions outside daytime hours was there as it is everywhere else.

Which is important for a city where I believe there is a vibrant night
life and yet no particularly convenient way of getting home. While
London's routes run less often in the evening the service levels are
generally OK although we have our fair share of x30 mins services.

As for rural operation, a bus journey time of 2 1/2 hours from Arundel
to Brighton just sent us heading for the car!

Well I was researching two possible trips into Kent for next weekend and
there are no bus services that complete the final link from train to my
destination so I cannot go. That means the rail company loses my fare,
the bus company doesn't earn any money, the attraction loses its
admission fee and Kent doesn't get any extra discretionary money I might
have spent while there.

Apparently calling your buses "Red Arrows",
I thin k London was guilty of *that* though! (Admittedly though Lt's
red Arrow network meant something. I'm surprised it's so vanished to
be honest, with the renaissance of bus travel in London.

As you say it meant something.

I am also concerned that the government will force the
privatisation of the Metro system to fund things like rolling stock
replacement and infrastructure renewal. That will be the final nail in
the coffin for the Metro system which is a mere shadow of its former
self - a 6 minute headway when we used to have a train every 3 minutes.

I didn't realise that that had happened.

Oh yes. I used to live at South Gosforth so had three "lines" into town
peaks and shopping times. Even on Sundays it was every 5 minutes. There
are no short supplemental services anymore and core frequencies in the
peak are every 12 mins on the Coast / Airport branches giving a 6 min
headway through the central area! As for evenings and Sundays it just
gets stupid. No wonder it isn't making money with such comparatively
poor frequencies and I expect much of the interchange traffic has gone
as few routes will mesh into a x12 Metro headway.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On my travels today[1], the driver sailed past only one compulsory stop.

The exception proves the rule.

[1] Evening return from home to fish restaurant at The Hale on 305.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:30:00 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
On 20 Aug 2006 05:20:13 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:
(snipped)

I find very little about the Tyne and Wear network amusing these days.
Which is a real pity, given that for a time it had the best public
transport network in provincial Britain.

My connection with the place was from 1981 until 1985, so I really did
get to see the "Golden Age", with the Metro coming on stream, TransFares
making multiple stage journeys easier and cheaper and full integration
of NGT and United (and other) services with PTE ones.

Yes - oh happy days of nice new buses, proper interchanges and really
fast and reliable travel across the county with barely a traffic jam
anywhere. They had virtually disappeared once Metro was in full swing.

Deregulation swept away much of what was achieved but it's worth
pointing out that TWPTE's investment in a rail-based system at least
gave them a "legacy". By contrast, SYPTE's investment in just
subsidised fares was almost destroyed at a stroke.

Yes agreed and that is an important point.

Indeed - it's no wonder that PTEs are clamouring for light rail rather
than an enhanced bus network (or even an enhanced heavy rail network).

To return South, we've just spent a lovely few days in Sussex, including
my first visit to Brighton for perhaps 20 years. The Brighton 7 Hove
bus network is certainly bright and shiny and buses were everywhere,
almost ubiquitous. However, the usual spectre of drastic service
reductions outside daytime hours was there as it is everywhere else.

Which is important for a city where I believe there is a vibrant night
life and yet no particularly convenient way of getting home. While
London's routes run less often in the evening the service levels are
generally OK although we have our fair share of x30 mins services.

Brighton does have the advantage of being much smaller, so walking
becomes possible and taxi journeys aren't as expensive.

I always find it mildly amusing that some smaller towns and cities brand
their late evening buses as "night buses". I've never actually used a
true night bus in the UK outside London (only in Dublin) - to what
extent do they exist in other UK cities?

As for rural operation, a bus journey time of 2 1/2 hours from Arundel
to Brighton just sent us heading for the car!

Well I was researching two possible trips into Kent for next weekend and
there are no bus services that complete the final link from train to my
destination so I cannot go. That means the rail company loses my fare,
the bus company doesn't earn any money, the attraction loses its
admission fee and Kent doesn't get any extra discretionary money I might
have spent while there.

I had such a problem trying to get to the Dockyard in Chatham from the
railway station; there is a very convenient bus station next to the
railway station, but the Countdown-style displays were showing
completely different information from both the printed timetables and
the actual bus arrivals themselves. We saw a shuttle bus regularly
departing to an out-of-town retail park called Chatham Dockside, and
asked a driver about the Dockyard, but he didn't seem to know anything
about it.

In the end, we just walked (about half an hour) - and when we got there,
we discovered that the retail park was *directly opposite* the Dockyard;
the journey back using the shuttle bus took about five minutes.

I find it amazing how skills in the provision of information to
potential customers seem to have totally passed by many privatised bus
operations, when in theory, as private companies, they should be
marketing experts.

Of course, this isn't true of all bus operators; I had excellent
experience from buses at St Austell in Cornwall, with well-timed
connections to trains, reasonable information and very friendly drivers.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London