Dave Arquati wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Jonathan Morris wrote:

TfL should be saying 'National Rail' services on all stations
with an interchange. It would certainly make more sense to
irregular travellers/tourists who don't really want or need to
know station X is for Virgin, Y for GNER and Z for First Great
Western etc. Anyone who does care will know anyway.

I disagree - a lot of people find the "National Rail services"
meaningless.

These are presumably the people who after more than 10 years still think
it's "British Rail". I bet most of them don't know the TOC names
either.

And TfL don't just say "other tube lines" for their own services do
they?

I'd agree with that. It might be a bit difficult at termini with a
very wide range of services like Victoria, but it would certainly help
to
highlight particular services like airport trains (e.g. "change
here for National Rail services, including trains to Gatwick").

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show Ealing
Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus encouraging LU
customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly Heathrow Connect
service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6 for the privilege, or £6
+ penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6 Travelcard on HC. The
interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton Town, where they should not
need to wait more than 5 minutes for a Heathrow train, is not shown as a
route to Heathrow.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:58:00 +0100, Richard J.
wrote:

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show Ealing
Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus encouraging LU
customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly Heathrow Connect
service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6 for the privilege, or £6
+ penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6 Travelcard on HC. The
interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton Town, where they should not
need to wait more than 5 minutes for a Heathrow train, is not shown as a
route to Heathrow.

That's ridiculous, and downright mean!
Is there any way of lobbying LUL to change it? Should be fairly cheap and
easy with those little sticker thingies they use to amend the line
diagrams.

Fig wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:58:00 +0100, Richard J.
wrote:

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show
Ealing Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus
encouraging LU customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly
Heathrow Connect service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6
for the privilege, or £6 + penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6
Travelcard on HC. The interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton
Town, where they should not need to wait more than 5 minutes for a
Heathrow train, is not shown as a route to Heathrow.

That's ridiculous, and downright mean!
Is there any way of lobbying LUL to change it? Should be fairly
cheap and easy with those little sticker thingies they use to amend
the line diagrams.

I've sent a complaint using the form on the LU website.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Fig wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:58:00 +0100, Richard J.
wrote:

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show Ealing
Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus encouraging LU
customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly Heathrow Connect
service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6 for the privilege, or £6
+ penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6 Travelcard on HC. The
interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton Town, where they should not
need to wait more than 5 minutes for a Heathrow train, is not shown as a
route to Heathrow.

That's ridiculous, and downright mean!
Is there any way of lobbying LUL to change it? Should be fairly cheap and
easy with those little sticker thingies they use to amend the line
diagrams.

Little sticky thingies would be treating the symptoms rather than the
cause of the Ealing Broadway problem which is that Heathrow should be
included in the Z1-6 area using HC connect. Ken Livingstone and TfL
should institute congestion charging around Heathrow
and integrate the Heatrow rail link into the London rail system. I am
only surprised that as a quid pro quo for future development at
Heathrow that the Government has not insisted on the handover of the
railway from Airport Junction to Network Rail, with appropriate
compensation of course for the unamortised construction costs. After
all Heathrow creates masive congestion and environmental impact in its
own right. I don't have a problem with a premium service for passengers
who wish to pay for the convenience. Incidently will Z1-6 cards be
valid on Crossrail and where will the validity run to. Has the House of
Commons comittee or TfL said anything about this yet?

Paul Oter wrote:
Simply saying "National Rail" would not be very helpful at Moorgate,
since National Rail trains on the GN route etc leave from a completely
different part of the station from National Rail trains on the TL
route.

Of course! While they should stick to National Rail on signs/maps, when
you reach the station it would be vital to say 'National Rail trains to
X' as appropriate. There's simply no need to mention the name of the
TOC anywhere.

Jonathan

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Yes but "King's Cross FCC" sounds naff. And as for "City FCC" it sounds more
like a football club than anything else!

Oh god no. I didn't mean rename the stations! I was meaning how they
fit 'First Capital Connect' on the departure and arrival boards. It
didn't fit, so they made it First Cap Connect - but if there's a delay
or other info, it still won't fit and the text is knocked off the side.
The stations haven't and aren't being renamed, although some people at
Thameslink DID cover up the name 'Thameslink' from the on-train route
maps by mistake/stupity/spite.

Kings Cross is a mainline station and, with regards to your comment
about TfL not saying other tube lines - they do say 'Underground'
initially, then the individual lines. I think most people, including
tourists, will be looking for a mainline railway station before
worrying (if they even know) about individual TOCs.

Jonathan

Jonathan Morris wrote:
Kings Cross is a mainline station and, with regards to your comment
about TfL not saying other tube lines - they do say 'Underground'
initially, then the individual lines. I think most people, including
tourists, will be looking for a mainline railway station before
worrying (if they even know) about individual TOCs.

However, if you are transferring at Moorgate (or Stratford, or West
Ham, etc) from the tube to NR then it does matter, as depending on
where you are coming from the trains leave from completely different
platforms. For example, if you arrived at West Ham on the Jubilee line
to catch a train for Southend, imagine if you followed the signs marked
"National Rail" only to end up on the NLL platforms...

Personally I don't see why they didn't leave the signs at Moorgate as
"Thameslink" and "Great Northern Electrics" - even if the franchise
holders change names, the train routes and destinations won't...
Likewise at Highbury and Islington where the signage until recently was
for "Great Northern Electrics" and "North London Lines" (I've not been
recently so not sure if it's changed)...

Richard J. wrote:
These are presumably the people who after more than 10 years still think
it's "British Rail". I bet most of them don't know the TOC names
either.

I think "National Rail" is better than "British Rail". Let's ignore the
argument for the renationalisation of the train network for now!

It's a national railway network, rather than a service that's usually
for a town/city (i.e. the tube or another metro system) and do tourists
need to know it's British Rail, as a reminder of what country they're
in? Therefore, even if one day we DID return to BR, I'd still prefer
not to see it written on maps.

Jonathan

wrote:
However, if you are transferring at Moorgate (or Stratford, or West
Ham, etc) from the tube to NR then it does matter, as depending on
where you are coming from the trains leave from completely different
platforms. For example, if you arrived at West Ham on the Jubilee line
to catch a train for Southend, imagine if you followed the signs marked
"National Rail" only to end up on the NLL platforms...

Keep the National Rail bit, but have individual signs saying where the
trains go to.

I don't think that...

leave the signs at Moorgate as "Thameslink" and "Great Northern Electrics" -
even if the franchise holders change names, the train routes and destinations
won't...

....makes sense. *You* and *I* know what Thameslink is/was. *You* know
what Great Northern Electrics was (and then Wagn and then, technically,
GN and now FCC GN) but it isn't as useful as saying 'Trains to
Bedford/Brighton' or 'Cambridge' or however you wish to do it. Any TOC
name, old or new, isn't any good for someone that doesn't know who they
are or where they go. How was it done in the BR days before
privatisation?

Jonathan

Richard J. wrote:

I disagree - a lot of people find the "National Rail services"
meaningless.

These are presumably the people who after more than 10 years still think
it's "British Rail". I bet most of them don't know the TOC names either.

Maybe but on the old style route maps on the suburban services interchange
stations carry a list of other major destinations served by them. As a
result a person can look at the onboard individual maps and get a good idea
of just what "National Rail" is served there.

And some routes like the North London Line and the GOBLIN have a proper
identity and defined route yet are just labelled as "National Rail" leaving
the traveller none the wiser.