Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Jonathan Morris wrote:

Once people are used to the new name, I hope First will copy FCC to the
signs at Kings Cross (instead of First Cap Connect, which is still too
long for anything but 'on time' messages).

Yes but "King's Cross FCC" sounds naff. And as for "City FCC" it sounds more
like a football club than anything else!

TfL should be saying 'National Rail' services on all stations with an
interchange. It would certainly make more sense to irregular
travellers/tourists who don't really want or need to know station X is
for Virgin, Y for GNER and Z for First Great Western etc. Anyone who
does care will know anyway.

I disagree - a lot of people find the "National Rail services" meaningless.
And TfL don't just say "other tube lines" for their own services do they?

I'd agree with that. It might be a bit difficult at termini with a very
wide range of services like Victoria, but it would certainly help to
highlight particular services like airport trains (e.g. "change here for
National Rail services, including trains to Gatwick").


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Jonathan Morris wrote:

TfL should be saying 'National Rail' services on all stations
with an interchange. It would certainly make more sense to
irregular travellers/tourists who don't really want or need to
know station X is for Virgin, Y for GNER and Z for First Great
Western etc. Anyone who does care will know anyway.

I disagree - a lot of people find the "National Rail services"
meaningless.

These are presumably the people who after more than 10 years still think
it's "British Rail". I bet most of them don't know the TOC names
either.

And TfL don't just say "other tube lines" for their own services do
they?

I'd agree with that. It might be a bit difficult at termini with a
very wide range of services like Victoria, but it would certainly help
to
highlight particular services like airport trains (e.g. "change
here for National Rail services, including trains to Gatwick").

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show Ealing
Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus encouraging LU
customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly Heathrow Connect
service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6 for the privilege, or £6
+ penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6 Travelcard on HC. The
interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton Town, where they should not
need to wait more than 5 minutes for a Heathrow train, is not shown as a
route to Heathrow.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:58:00 +0100, Richard J.
wrote:

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show Ealing
Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus encouraging LU
customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly Heathrow Connect
service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6 for the privilege, or £6
+ penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6 Travelcard on HC. The
interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton Town, where they should not
need to wait more than 5 minutes for a Heathrow train, is not shown as a
route to Heathrow.

That's ridiculous, and downright mean!
Is there any way of lobbying LUL to change it? Should be fairly cheap and
easy with those little sticker thingies they use to amend the line
diagrams.

Fig wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:58:00 +0100, Richard J.
wrote:

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show
Ealing Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus
encouraging LU customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly
Heathrow Connect service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6
for the privilege, or £6 + penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6
Travelcard on HC. The interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton
Town, where they should not need to wait more than 5 minutes for a
Heathrow train, is not shown as a route to Heathrow.

That's ridiculous, and downright mean!
Is there any way of lobbying LUL to change it? Should be fairly
cheap and easy with those little sticker thingies they use to amend
the line diagrams.

I've sent a complaint using the form on the LU website.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Fig wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:58:00 +0100, Richard J.
wrote:

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show Ealing
Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus encouraging LU
customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly Heathrow Connect
service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6 for the privilege, or £6
+ penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6 Travelcard on HC. The
interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton Town, where they should not
need to wait more than 5 minutes for a Heathrow train, is not shown as a
route to Heathrow.

That's ridiculous, and downright mean!
Is there any way of lobbying LUL to change it? Should be fairly cheap and
easy with those little sticker thingies they use to amend the line
diagrams.

Little sticky thingies would be treating the symptoms rather than the
cause of the Ealing Broadway problem which is that Heathrow should be
included in the Z1-6 area using HC connect. Ken Livingstone and TfL
should institute congestion charging around Heathrow
and integrate the Heatrow rail link into the London rail system. I am
only surprised that as a quid pro quo for future development at
Heathrow that the Government has not insisted on the handover of the
railway from Airport Junction to Network Rail, with appropriate
compensation of course for the unamortised construction costs. After
all Heathrow creates masive congestion and environmental impact in its
own right. I don't have a problem with a premium service for passengers
who wish to pay for the convenience. Incidently will Z1-6 cards be
valid on Crossrail and where will the validity run to. Has the House of
Commons comittee or TfL said anything about this yet?

Bob wrote:
Fig wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:58:00 +0100, Richard J.
wrote:

One current example of indicating airport services is distinctly
unhelpful. The District Line diagrams in the D-stock trains show Ealing
Broadway as an interchange for "trains to Heathrow", thus encouraging LU
customers to go there and wait for the half-hourly Heathrow Connect
service, paying (not to LU) either an extra £6 for the privilege, or £6
+ penalty fare if they try to use a Z1-6 Travelcard on HC. The
interchange with the Piccadilly at Acton Town, where they should not
need to wait more than 5 minutes for a Heathrow train, is not shown as a
route to Heathrow.
That's ridiculous, and downright mean!
Is there any way of lobbying LUL to change it? Should be fairly cheap and
easy with those little sticker thingies they use to amend the line
diagrams.

Little sticky thingies would be treating the symptoms rather than the
cause of the Ealing Broadway problem which is that Heathrow should be
included in the Z1-6 area using HC connect. Ken Livingstone and TfL
should institute congestion charging around Heathrow
and integrate the Heatrow rail link into the London rail system. I am
only surprised that as a quid pro quo for future development at
Heathrow that the Government has not insisted on the handover of the
railway from Airport Junction to Network Rail, with appropriate
compensation of course for the unamortised construction costs. After
all Heathrow creates masive congestion and environmental impact in its
own right. I don't have a problem with a premium service for passengers
who wish to pay for the convenience. Incidently will Z1-6 cards be
valid on Crossrail and where will the validity run to. Has the House of
Commons comittee or TfL said anything about this yet?

The intention has always been for Crossrail to be fully integrated into
the travelcard system. Although premium pricing was assessed, it would
significantly erode the congestion relief benefits Crossrail would
bestow upon other rail services (including the Underground).

In theory this extends to Heathrow, although I'm not sure the issue has
been entirely resolved with BAA. Saying that, BAA are probably a lot
happier now that Crossrail is an all-stations service rather than the
express service originally envisaged - but they're still not
particularly happy about Crossrail in general.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Richard J. wrote:
These are presumably the people who after more than 10 years still think
it's "British Rail". I bet most of them don't know the TOC names
either.

I think "National Rail" is better than "British Rail". Let's ignore the
argument for the renationalisation of the train network for now!

It's a national railway network, rather than a service that's usually
for a town/city (i.e. the tube or another metro system) and do tourists
need to know it's British Rail, as a reminder of what country they're
in? Therefore, even if one day we DID return to BR, I'd still prefer
not to see it written on maps.

Jonathan

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Jonathan Morris wrote:

Richard J. wrote:

These are presumably the people who after more than 10 years still
think it's "British Rail". I bet most of them don't know the TOC names
either.

I think "National Rail" is better than "British Rail". Let's ignore the
argument for the renationalisation of the train network for now!

It's a national railway network, rather than a service that's usually
for a town/city (i.e. the tube or another metro system)

Oh yes? And where, pray tell, do the National Rail trains at Walthamstow
Central go? Or Greenford? Or any of the NLL stations?

My point is that there are a substantial number of NR lines that *are*
specifically for London, and for London's rail network to be fully
integrated, these should be signed individually, just like underground
lines. I'd certainly agree that giving details of the national services at
Euston or King's Cross St Pancras would be silly, but indicating that you
can change for Watford, Thameslink, the Great Northern or whatever would
be appropriate.

tom

--
Gotta treat 'em mean to make 'em scream.

Tom Anderson wrote:
Oh yes? And where, pray tell, do the National Rail trains at Walthamstow
Central go? Or Greenford? Or any of the NLL stations?

I don't know about all lines, but we were talking about GN and
Thameslink, which aren't just London based services. The NLL is a bit
odd, having always shown up on tube maps and been considered, pretty
much, like a tube service (except without the frequency of service,
station staffing etc).

I can't comment on the other lines as I've never used them. For me,
just showing the name of a line wouldn't ever help encourage me to use
them as I still don't know where they go from/to.

Jonathan

In article . com,
(Jonathan Morris) wrote:

The NLL is a bit odd, having always shown up on tube maps and been
considered, pretty much, like a tube service (except without the
frequency of service, station staffing etc).

You must be young! It was a battle fought when Ken ran the GLC. Before
the 1980s the NLL didn't appear on tube maps.

--
Colin Rosenstiel