"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message
ups.com...
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
PS A similar pair were locked up in Manchester not so long ago. It's a
bloody waste of money and, in the long term, turns bad lads worse.

Evidence for your statement?

"That's strange. Several years ago I personally arrested a number of
youths who did graffiti damage to the tune of several £100.000s
between them. Some went to prison some didn't. Those who went to
prison have kept well away from railway property ever since. Those who

were given a variety of CSOs erc carried on with their damage. In the
REAL world, PRISON DOES WORK."

is evidence that you are wrong, or shouldn't generalise quite so much
by saying it 'turns bad lads worse' as if it's 100% of the time.

Jonathan

There is not one scrap of evidence to prove that prison cuts crime rates.
NOT ONE SCRAP. Put the b*st*rds out on chain gangs 9-5 and have them
cleaning graffiti.of trains and walls themselves, but don't pretend that
prison is anything but writing off a young person for life.

Brian.

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
Phil McGlass wrote:

Prison does work in that it keeps ne'er-do-wells out of circulation.
It's when they are released that the problems arise.

That's like saying jumping off the top of a building is perfectly safe,
the problems only arise when you hit the ground.


Indeed. Don't these Daily Mail readers make you laugh! I am anything but a
liberal with crime and punishment, but they seem to think that the answer to
everything is to lock people up. Executing anyone guilty of anything more
horrendous than a parking fine would at least be honest!

Brian.

"Brian Begg-Robertson" wrote:

Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by
giving them the birch. We have whole areas of the country where the gun is
king and people cary them knowing that to do so shortens their own life
expectancy to mid 20s if they are lucky, and you expect them to respect the
birch. Kids these days are savages. Lock them up, throw the key away,
pretend that it will make them better people. It wont!

How about a day in the stocks then ? Or drenching their clothes with paint ?

"Pyromancer" wrote in message
...

Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that
a
lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a
thorough
education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the
pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the
real
world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK.

Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept
of what a prison is for.

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back and
tell us how wonderful it was. Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution, the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

Far
better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just
learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on
giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner
to run.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know. But
overall, Brian's statement has much to commend it. Perhaps you'd like to
tell us which rights should be denied to your fellow human beings?

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by
giving them the birch.

We've never had it so bad. Anti social behaviour (which I'd probably
have to say that graffitti falls into) is way out of control because
there's no punishment. ASBOs aren't enforced and community support
officers are laughed at by both criminals AND real police. Now we're
supposed to let shoplifters off with community service (that less than
50% of people actually do) and hope that makes them feel relieved
enough to 'think about what they've done'.

Look at car crime, with people driving while banned, uninsured or
without a licence. They keep getting caught over and over, with
millions of points and a ban that lasts until they're 200 years old. It
doesn't deter them. However, when the police got the power to crush the
cars they were in, finally they begin to learn in their primitive way
that they might still be at liberty, but they can't actually break the
law again (at least that's the theory, if we didn't ditch traffic cops
for static cameras that can't do anything but send out a speeding
ticket to a ficticious address).

In some cases, an alternative look at punishing people is a good idea.
But if they're out terrorising people or damaging property, you MUST
take them off the street. If we don't, then in years to come we don't
need to worry about terrorists, because the streets will be complete
anarchy. Honest, law abiding citizens will stop hiding behind their
curtains and take the law into their own hands.

Lock them up, throw the key away, pretend that it will make them better people. It
wont!

If you threw away the key it would! They would NEVER get out in that
case. Forget whether it deters anyone else turning to a life of crime;
you've at least dealt with the problem in hand.

Jonathan

Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:

Prison does NOT work in that it does not equip a prisoner for release again.
And the fact remains that, all bar a tiny minority, all of the many
thousands of people in prison right now WILL be released.

The prison system is obviously wrong if it can't equip a prisoner for
returning to normal life. What is your suggested alternative though?

Community support? How many people turn up or complete this?
A fine? How many people pay up?

Surely the prison system needs to be fixed? We can't just give up and
cross our fingers hoping that being respectful to petty criminals will
make them good. Kids laugh at cops because they feel, and probably do,
have more power and rights.

Jonathan

Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
There is not one scrap of evidence to prove that prison cuts crime rates.
NOT ONE SCRAP. Put the b*st*rds out on chain gangs 9-5 and have them
cleaning graffiti.of trains and walls themselves, but don't pretend that
prison is anything but writing off a young person for life.

So you ignored my question, and the quoted comment then. That's ONE
SCRAP of evidence, and it's pretty obvious that while you ARE right in
many cases (and I'd even go as far to agree that it quite probably is
most cases) it isn't ALL. If I can live in the real world, why can't
you? Prison does serve a valuable purpose.

What's the percentage of the prison population that's young
incidentally? If they're older is prison okay then?

Jonathan

Graham Murray wrote:
Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well
done' graffiti actually do much harm? Some of it can be very artistic
and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are
concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish
colour schemes used by some TOCs.

How much is well done? Mostly it's a simple tag, which requires no
skill (take a pen and paper, now scribble some initials or a name; hey
presto.. your very own tag).

I'd agree that some stuff you see doesn't look too bad, but it's not up
to you or I to decide whether we should be 'adding to the character of
an area'. Covering the cab window of a train probably isn't
particularly safe either.

More important though is the fact that people don't feel safe around
graffitti, even if a lot of it is done when they're not there (rather
than the image of a train being attacked with helpless passengers
looking on).

Jonathan

Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in
message ...
Phil McGlass wrote:

Prison does work in that it keeps ne'er-do-wells out of circulation.
It's when they are released that the problems arise.

That's like saying jumping off the top of a building is perfectly
safe, the problems only arise when you hit the ground.

Indeed. Don't these Daily Mail readers make you laugh! I am anything
but a liberal with crime and punishment, but they seem to think that
the answer to everything is to lock people up.

Maybe it is, but they shouldn't lock minor criminal youths up with hardened
old lags. Have a classification system, and then have separate bantam
prisons, heavyweight prisons etc.

In message , at 18:31:20 on Sat,
2 Sep 2006, John Rowland
remarked:
Have a classification system, and then have separate bantam
prisons, heavyweight prisons etc.

They do.
--
Roland Perry