"Brian Begg-Robertson" wrote in message
news

"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message
ups.com...
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
PS A similar pair were locked up in Manchester not so long ago. It's a
bloody waste of money and, in the long term, turns bad lads worse.

There is not one scrap of evidence to prove that prison cuts crime rates.
NOT ONE SCRAP. Put the b*st*rds out on chain gangs 9-5 and have them
cleaning graffiti.of trains and walls themselves, but don't pretend that
prison is anything but writing off a young person for life.

Wrong, the crime rates have gone down significantly as the number of
prisoners has gone up. Its a little harder, though not impossible to
commit a crime when you are in prison.

On 2 Sep 2006 16:51:21 -0700 someone who may be "
wrote this:-

Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

Why not? We used to have as harsh a penal code (if not harsher) than
that in Singapore and it was not only "tolerated" but an example to the
World. From where do you think Singapore took its example?

Is "penal code" a phrase used in any of the various legal systems in
the UK?

When was this "delightful" era and when was it abolished?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2 Sep 2006 12:46:09 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

Today's Daily Telegraph runs a glossy 3-page piece spread glamourising
so-called "graffers" and their work.

Have they changed their stance on Laura Norder, or are they being
ironic?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

wrote in message
oups.com...

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've
been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim
of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had
the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back
and
tell us how wonderful it was.

Well, if I was found with an album of graffiti images and dozens of
spray cans in my home and claimed "mistaken identity" (as someone I
once prosecuted was - and acquitted!), and had the crap beaten out of
me, I don't expect I'd get much sympathy.

That's the ticket, change the goalposts and up the ante.

Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

Why not?

Societies' regimes work in their respective real worlds. If you were
prepared to expand the police force several fold and give them military
backup, perhaps you could make such a regime work in the UK.

We used to have as harsh a penal code (if not harsher) than
that in Singapore and it was not only "tolerated" but an example to the
World.

Bull****.

From where do you think Singapore took its example?

It reflects its own society.

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is
not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution,
the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

What evidence do you have that wanton vandalism and hooliganism by
youths (the crimes we are dealing with in this thread) is worse in
Saudi Arabia?

Ah, naughty Tim can't discuss anything other than what you want him to.
Perhaps there will be wife beating questions next. But on a serious note,
crime rates are worse in Saudi than in the UK. Worse to the extent that
foreign nationals can't roam the streets freely - which suggests that the
local crims are armed with something more serious than spray paint.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know. But
overall, Brian's statement has much to commend it. Perhaps you'd like to
tell us which rights should be denied to your fellow human beings?

Here's a list of "rights" I'd happily deny to my fellow human beings:-

The right to make others' lives a misery
The right to cost the State and private companies millions of Pounds in
clearing up the mess made
The right to vandalise any property, public or private

Rest of tiresome drivel snipped

Committing a crime isn't a right. OTOH subjecting alleged criminals to due
process, while treating them as fellow human beings, shows a society that is
above mob rule and is civilised. And before we get the "yah boo softie"
crowd kicking off, being civilised doesn't mean accepting the abuse of
others' property. Which I do not.

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

Jack May wrote:
Wrong, the crime rates have gone down significantly as the number of
prisoners has gone up. Its a little harder, though not impossible to
commit a crime when you are in prison.

The problem we have, which can make it look like prison doesn't work,
is that it's so easy to get away with committing a crime these days.

It's not just the anti-social stuff, but the fact the police are
stretched, made to do 'visible policing' that takes them away from the
crime hotspots and puts them on shopping streets, outside Parliament
and train stations etc, rely on CSOs to deter the very people that know
they can stick their fingers up at someone not given the power to
arrest (as most aren't) or have had their job replaced by a camera that
catches a specific offender and ignores everything else.

It's not even easy to report a crime these days. The desk staff (often
completely civilian) are so disinterested that they effectively
encourage you to keep quiet, which only helps criminals get away with
even more. If I need to go to the police station, I have to do it in
office hours too! Finally, at night, some parts of Hertfordshire makes
do with one car that might have to travel from miles away to respond to
something. Couple a lack of police, and no desire to report a crime,
and is it any wonder that petty criminals advance themselves without
having to learn from 'someone on the inside'?

Jonathan

Tim Fenton wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've
been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim
of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had
the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back
and
tell us how wonderful it was.

Well, if I was found with an album of graffiti images and dozens of
spray cans in my home and claimed "mistaken identity" (as someone I
once prosecuted was - and acquitted!), and had the crap beaten out of
me, I don't expect I'd get much sympathy.

That's the ticket, change the goalposts and up the ante.

Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

Why not?

Societies' regimes work in their respective real worlds. If you were
prepared to expand the police force several fold and give them military
backup, perhaps you could make such a regime work in the UK.

We used to have as harsh a penal code (if not harsher) than
that in Singapore and it was not only "tolerated" but an example to the
World.

Bull****.

From where do you think Singapore took its example?

It reflects its own society.

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is
not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution,
the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

What evidence do you have that wanton vandalism and hooliganism by
youths (the crimes we are dealing with in this thread) is worse in
Saudi Arabia?

Ah, naughty Tim can't discuss anything other than what you want him to.
Perhaps there will be wife beating questions next. But on a serious note,
crime rates are worse in Saudi than in the UK. Worse to the extent that
foreign nationals can't roam the streets freely - which suggests that the
local crims are armed with something more serious than spray paint.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know. But
overall, Brian's statement has much to commend it. Perhaps you'd like to
tell us which rights should be denied to your fellow human beings?

Here's a list of "rights" I'd happily deny to my fellow human beings:-

The right to make others' lives a misery
The right to cost the State and private companies millions of Pounds in
clearing up the mess made
The right to vandalise any property, public or private

Rest of tiresome drivel snipped

Committing a crime isn't a right. OTOH subjecting alleged criminals to due
process, while treating them as fellow human beings, shows a society that is
above mob rule and is civilised. And before we get the "yah boo softie"
crowd kicking off, being civilised doesn't mean accepting the abuse of
others' property. Which I do not.

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

Tim, how many hours of your life have you spent in a Youth Court?

I have recently been appointed Prosecution Counsel for 3 months to the
Inner London Youth Courts and, amongst my friends and colleagues (who
both prosecute and defend, as I did until recently, and will do again
after November) and there is virtual unanimity amongst us on the
complete and utter breakdown of the youth justice system. It's a nice
earner for the lawyers (on both sides) but does little or nothing to
deter youth crime - surely one of its primary aims?

Of course I am not realistically suggesting birching youths (although I
personally do not have any philosophical objections to corporal
punishment), but you would regard with incredulity just how RARE it is
for a youth, whatever the crime, to be given a custodial sentence.

Last week, I prosecuted a youth for his 7th or 8th street robbery.
Result? Yet another Supervision Order - which he had already breached
on several occasions.

We certainly have "due process" (and you would, I hope, be impressed by
how impartial and fair Court proceedings are, especially if I'm
prosecuting - I certainly adhere to the principle that it's better that
10 guilty men go free than one innocent man is convicted, and do not
hesitate to drop cases when appropriate), the trouble is it's just a
conveyor belt of crime, prosectution, meanlingless sentence, crime,
prosecution, meanlingless sentence etc., etc. Deterrence plays no part
whatsoever.

In my view, it should.

Marc.

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:15:37 +0100, David Hansen wrote:

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard.

Not allowed, I forget the reason why.

However, it might be worth glueing these scumbags to the front of a
train and taking them for a ride they are unlikely to forget,
perhaps between London and some place an hour or so away. They might
not be keen to repeat such an experience.

Are you joking? Some people would pay good money for that!

I can see it now... "Train vandalism epidemic as enthusiasts seek free
(external) cab rides"

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 19:04:04 +0100, Christian Hansen wrote:


I object to paying my good tax money to keep miscreants like this in jail for
even a few months, much less the rest of their lives.

There are a couple of tried and true ways of dealing with this kind of person:

1) Make them clean the outside of the trains they (or others) have spoiled.
Then make them clean the insides of trains for a long period of community
service. They won't want to try it again. The only problem with this is that
the workers whose jobs these are aren't keen to let the miscreants take them
over. The solution to that is to make the workers the managers of these kids
while they're doing the work.

2) If they're actually artistic, besides (1) give them a legal canvas to do
their work on. It worked in New York City when I lived there. This does not
work unless (1) is also used.

LU have a similar tactic to this. Trains of withdrawn 1983 stock are
placed at strategic locations around the network. They are then
allowed to become completely covered in graffiti. Each time one of
these decoys is vandalised, it's one less cleanup job on an actual
service train.

;-)

wrote:




That's a curious interpretation of the duty of government! My house is
private property too, but I'd be pretty shocked if I were told that
someone who vandalised it would not be searched for or prosecuted
because it was private property and therefore my duty to find and
obtain redress privately.

I would not be at all shocked if the police took a report, gave you a
copy for your insurance company, and filed the report away.

John, you misunderstand the purpose of the criminal justice system. It
is not to obtain redress between citizens - which is why compensation
is rarely paid and only in nominal sums.

I understand the purpose of the criminal justice system. I am saying
that privatization looks good on paper because many costs are still
borne by the taxpayers. The railway companies do not provide adequate
security for their facilities and they expect the government to make up
for their lack of effort.

John Mara

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tim Fenton
gently breathed:
"Pyromancer" wrote in message
...

Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept
of what a prison is for.

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back and
tell us how wonderful it was. Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

I would have no problem going there if a suitable job happened to come
up - in fact I'll probably go there eventually as a tourist as my
parents spent time there in the 1960s. As for avoiding trouble, it's
easy, just don't break the law.

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution, the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

We're specifically talking about anti-social behaviour, especially the
evils of graffiti. Saudi Arabia has it's own unique problems, and is
hardly a valid like-for-like comparison with a secular western
democracy.

Far
better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just
learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on
giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner
to run.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know.

There are many news reports on the subject - and not just the Daily Wail
ones. Recently it was, ISTR reported that prisoners not having TVs was
regarded as somehow a problem. Prisoners should count themselves lucky
to have books, all forms of electronic entertainment should be
completely banned.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan ISP!
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com