Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:20:05 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

Nice to see the clever integration of the blue disabled access symbol
on to the map. Becks foresighted modular flexibility triumphs again.

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dave Arquati wrote:
TfL have announced their branding plans for the North London Railway
concession:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...d-exterior.jpg

I take it that this is just an illustration of the livery style on a
prexisting graphic- details like third rail shoes, 25kv pantograph 9 or
space for one - inter unit connections and end doors being ommitted.

Just an illustration I imagine - though the units will be Class 376-derived,
so they'll look close to that.

Dave Arquati wrote:

Rather than opting for the brown "Rail" roundel, the branding scheme is
an orange (!) "Overground" scheme - not to be confused with South
London's "Overground Network" branding.

Trains and signs will have an orange trim, there will be an Overground
roundel almost identical to the Underground one but with an orange
circle (and obviously the different word).


Going back to the branding, all "Overground" lines will appear on the
Tube map, which TfL has released a sample of for 2010. Interestingly,
the line style (white centre with orange edges) looks much like the old
style used to show selected British Rail lines (like Thameslink and the
NLL) about fifteen years ago.

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to. At the very least, the East London
Line Extension should run in to Highbury parallel to the line from
Stratford, and terminate there. In the same way as the Metropolitan
does at Aldgate or the District at Edgware Road.

Peter

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to. At the very least, the East London
Line Extension should run in to Highbury parallel to the line from
Stratford, and terminate there. In the same way as the Metropolitan
does at Aldgate or the District at Edgware Road.

You could say the same for the DLR.

Peter Heather wrote:

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to.

This assumes that this is not the plan. I'm not sure that the penny
has dropped that an orbital railway is a good idea, but orbital train
services are not. There is no point running trains from Richmond to
West Croydon via Gospel Oak. Instead, trains should come in from
outside, go round for a bit, then go outwards again. Probably a third
of the way round is about right, in overlapping sections. Thus
Richmond to Stratford overlaps Watford to New Cross and Clapham
Junction to Barking - and the latter should possibly extend beyond CJ
- e.g. to Hampton Court.

This maximises journeys possible with one change.

Colin McKenzie

--
On average in Britain, you're more likely to get a head injury walking
a mile than cycling it.
So why aren't we all exhorted to wear walking helmets?

Dave Arquati wrote:

Going back to the branding, all "Overground" lines will appear on the
Tube map, which TfL has released a sample of for 2010. Interestingly,
the line style (white centre with orange edges) looks much like the old
style used to show selected British Rail lines (like Thameslink and the
NLL) about fifteen years ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...06_tubemap.pdf

That map throws up a few extra bits of information by itself, such as:
[snip]
.... also Roding Valley still has the restricted service dagger (no
service Woodford - Hainault after 2000 hours), but Chigwell and Grange
Hill have lost theirs. Do I remember reading somewhere recently that
this part of the Central line will open until normal close of service
from some time soon, or is this just an oversight on the cartographer's
part?

One thing that slightly surprised me was that no wheelchair access is
planned (according to the map) for most of the pre-existing stations to
be served by the new ELL/ELR. I guess these inherit their inaccesbility
("grandfather rights?") from the fact they currently have train
services, even if those services might be suspended for a time and then
significantly change on resumption.

I imagine Wapping in particular would pose a huge (financial and/or
engineering) problem. It seems a bit mean not to at least make West
Croydon fully accessible though, which surely wouldn't be a very
difficult job?

On 5 Sep 2006 14:12:40 -0700, "Peter Heather"
wrote:


Dave Arquati wrote:

Going back to the branding, all "Overground" lines will appear on the
Tube map, which TfL has released a sample of for 2010. Interestingly,
the line style (white centre with orange edges) looks much like the old
style used to show selected British Rail lines (like Thameslink and the
NLL) about fifteen years ago.

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to. At the very least, the East London
Line Extension should run in to Highbury parallel to the line from
Stratford, and terminate there. In the same way as the Metropolitan
does at Aldgate or the District at Edgware Road.

As service patterns seem to be open to a lot of debate there is no point
showing separate services at this point. The point of the map is to
simply make the routes stand out relative to the rest of the lines. As
has already been said the DLR is shown as one network on the main map.
this is probably just as well because the differing peak / off peak
services would make the map overly fussy and out of scale. I would
personally quite like to see separate lines for the Overground but that
would depend on how complex the eventual service pattern is.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Colin McKenzie wrote:
Peter Heather wrote:

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to.

This assumes that this is not the plan. I'm not sure that the penny has
dropped that an orbital railway is a good idea, but orbital train
services are not. There is no point running trains from Richmond to West
Croydon via Gospel Oak. Instead, trains should come in from outside, go
round for a bit, then go outwards again. Probably a third of the way
round is about right, in overlapping sections. Thus Richmond to
Stratford overlaps Watford to New Cross and Clapham Junction to Barking
- and the latter should possibly extend beyond CJ - e.g. to Hampton Court.

This maximises journeys possible with one change.

....but also maximises performance pollution (unfortunately).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

wrote:

It seems a bit mean not to at least make West
Croydon fully accessible though, which surely wouldn't be a very
difficult job?

Not sure - there isn't much in the way of direct vertical points between the
ticket hall and the platforms in the current layout. The area where the
steps from Platforms 1-3 meet the bridge from Platform 4 and the entrance to
the ticket hall has always been a nightmare - pre barriers the ticket
inspectors would stand in the small entry portal and any problem ticket
could cause chaos as no-one could get round.

A shaft that come down onto the old Platform 2, combined with some levelling
of platform 1/3, would still have the problem of the level of the bridge.
And the ramp down to Platform 4 is possibly too steep, even if you could
level off everything else.

Dave Arquati wrote:

Oh, and at what point is it easier to mark out stations that *aren't*
step-free? East London looks like a bit of a mess (albeit a good one
if you don't use steps).

They don't seem to have realised that most of the Goblin stations are
already step free.