Neil Williams wrote:
There's the other "curiosity" of the Strippenkaart in that it gives you
a specified amount of time to make your journey which isn't always
enough if there are a lot of changes; this is based on the number of
strips stamped. If you think this will be the case (rare, but
possible, it nearly happened to me one evening when waiting for a
connection took a while) it is advantageous to stamp more strips in the
first place, as if you go over you need to stamp again from scratch.
This *isn't* explained anywhere.

But Oyster has the same problem! If you spend too long riding around,
it assumes you've walked off without touching out. Then when you /do/
touch out, it assumes you forgot to touch in. And you end up with two
unresolved journeys. And, as of November, two £8 penalties.

I always work on the basis that it won't do any harm if there's space
for it on the ticket. Usually, I believe, you do need to stamp
everything, but some ticket machines do it for you.

If you ever ride the River LINE (yes, that's really how it's spelled) in
southern New Jersey (USA), be careful! I once watched an ticket
inspector fine a poor passenger THREE times because, to kill time while
waiting for the train, he punched his ticket four times (in four
different locations). When the inspector asked the passenger to
present ID, he presented a college ID card -- and this happens to have
been during a promotion that allowed college students to ride any
NJTransit services for free just by showing a valid college ID. In the
end, the inspector let him go with a warning.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Stephen Farrow wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:

I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk
would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding
tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew
what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of
ticket machine, but it was OOU.

At one point, at LaGuardia airport in New York, it was possible to buy
an MTA "fun pass" (day pass) only from *one* newsstand - which was
helpfully located on the departures level, rather than in arrivals. I've
no idea whether or not this is still the case.

When was this? I doubt it's still the case, although I don't know for sure.

But ever since the price jumped from $4 to $7, the Fun Pass has been an
incredibly bad deal for nearly everyone. What most people want is a $10
pay-per-ride MetroCard; longer-term tourists might opt for a $24 7-day
unlimited MetroCard.

Unfortunately, the online MetroCard sales outlet through CitySearch shut
down in 2001 and has yet to be replaced, so tourists can't buy
MetroCards before leaving home.

It's a problem. Cash fares are accepted on buses (coins only, and no
change is provided), but the free bus-subway transfer is only available
with MetroCard, and most people who ride the bus from LGA need to
transfer to the subway. (LGA does not have direct subway service.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

David of Broadway wrote:
Stephen Farrow wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:

I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk
would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding
tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew
what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of
ticket machine, but it was OOU.

At one point, at LaGuardia airport in New York, it was possible to buy
an MTA "fun pass" (day pass) only from *one* newsstand - which was
helpfully located on the departures level, rather than in arrivals.
I've no idea whether or not this is still the case.

When was this? I doubt it's still the case, although I don't know for
sure.

About three years ago.


But ever since the price jumped from $4 to $7, the Fun Pass has been an
incredibly bad deal for nearly everyone. What most people want is a $10
pay-per-ride MetroCard; longer-term tourists might opt for a $24 7-day
unlimited MetroCard.

Which is what I've done every time since. That trip, though, I needed a
one-day pass - I was arriving in the morning (from Toronto), meeting a
friend in Midtown, heading over to Lincoln Center to do some research at
the Performing Arts Library, then heading to Penn Station in the evening
to catch a train out to Hofstra University, where I was going to a
conference. And, of course, I arrived without exact change for the bus,
and a cab to Manhattan was beyond my graduate student budget. It was
only by asking around in the terminal that I got directed to the one
newsstand that sold the Fun Pass.

Unfortunately, the online MetroCard sales outlet through CitySearch shut
down in 2001 and has yet to be replaced, so tourists can't buy
MetroCards before leaving home.

It's a problem. Cash fares are accepted on buses (coins only, and no
change is provided), but the free bus-subway transfer is only available
with MetroCard, and most people who ride the bus from LGA need to
transfer to the subway. (LGA does not have direct subway service.)

Mind you, Toronto airport isn't really any better. There's the very
overpriced Pacific Western bus downtown, which is fairly easy to find
from the arrivals level of each terminal. There's a very good TTC bus
service to the subway, but you need exact change or metropass or a
token, and as far as I know none of the newsstands in any of the three
terminals sell tokens or tickets (or TTC day passes, which are also
valid), despite the fact that convenience stores all over the city are
set up to sell TTC tickets and passes.

--

Stephen

I know all the games... pin the thing on the thing... pass the thing...

David of Broadway wrote:

If you ever ride the River LINE (yes, that's really how it's spelled) in
southern New Jersey (USA), be careful! I once watched an ticket
inspector fine a poor passenger THREE times because, to kill time while
waiting for the train, he punched his ticket four times (in four
different locations).

Sounds like he was an idiot - surely you can't travel more than once
with one invalid ticket?

Neil

Peter Frimberley wrote:

It's only a tax on stupid tourists. Anyone visiting a different city,
especially those from overseas where English is not their first
language, is likely to bring with them a guide book or do some
internet research before they set off. I certainly always do, and that
research always includes checking out the public transport options and
fares in my destination city.

I reiterate my previous statement - you, like other readers of this NG,
are clued up on transport and travel. Not every tourist/visitor is -
and nor will they necessarily take a guidebook.

You also ignore the fact that typically newly arrived tourists come
with a huge pile of large denomination notes or travellers cheques.

Or credit/debit cards?

Quite how you expect them to fit those into Oyster machines is beyond
me.

I would expect a machine selling tickets costing gbp10 to accept gbp10
notes, and maybe even gbp20 ones. I don't know, but I wouldn't
consider it likely that many are turning up with wads of gbp50 notes -
though I may be wrong...

Neil

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:43:04 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:53:56 +0100, asdf
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:17 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

- TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way
for an easy PAYG rollout

This point seems to be the most intruiging, and the biggest shake-up.
It seems that the same fares will apply across all TOCs. I suppose
this means that fares on some routes will go up and on other routes
will go down. What will happen to CDRs and Railcard discounts? Will
the changes spread outside the zones, or could it be cheaper to buy a
return from the first station outside the zones if travelling from
Zone 6 to Zone 1? How will fares from NR to Tube stations be
calculated? What about if the NR journey starts outside the zones?

I printed off the 2007 fares guide at work so I'll stick a post up
tomorrow about what the tube-train fares are. I don't have enough info
to answer most of your questions but the numbers might help explain
things a bit.

I said I would post something on the train-tube fares so here goes.

The new train-tube fares are as follows
Fares including zone 1
Adult Child
Peak Off Peak Peak Off Peak
Single Return Return Single Return Return
1 zone 400 - - 200 - -
2 zones 410 660* 510* 200 330* 200*
3 zones 470 780* 570* 230 390* 200*
4 zones 510 900* 570* 250 450* 200*
5 zones 580 1120* 670* 290 560* 200*
6 zones 680 1320* 670* 340 660* 200*

Fares not including Z1

1 zone 300 560 460* 150 280 200*
2 zones 340 630 460* 170 310 200*
3 zones 380 700 460* 190 350 200*
4 zones 420 770 460* 210 390 200*
5 zones 460 800* 460* 230 400* 200*

* the appropriate peak / off peak day travelcard is issued instead.

There is nothing mentioned about NR services adopting zonal fares in the
staff briefing document. I imagine that might be because the NR Fares
Offices are still working out what will apply when and how.

I imagine a certain Mr Doe will be kept very busy looking at the ins and
outs of this issue.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:43:04 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:


On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:53:56 +0100, asdf
wrote:


On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:17 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:


- TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way
for an easy PAYG rollout

This point seems to be the most intruiging, and the biggest shake-up.
It seems that the same fares will apply across all TOCs. I suppose
this means that fares on some routes will go up and on other routes
will go down. What will happen to CDRs and Railcard discounts? Will
the changes spread outside the zones, or could it be cheaper to buy a
return from the first station outside the zones if travelling from
Zone 6 to Zone 1? How will fares from NR to Tube stations be
calculated? What about if the NR journey starts outside the zones?

We will definitely see very strange pricing in that case. It is
extremely difficult to avoid that around boundarys between zonal-fare
areas and distance based fare areas. I live in Sweden and when
travelling by rail across the country here it is in many cases cheaper
to add a short extra journey into the next county to the rail ticket if
travelling to a place near a county border and things like that. Maybe
we will see that in Grater London too in the future.

I printed off the 2007 fares guide at work so I'll stick a post up
tomorrow about what the tube-train fares are. I don't have enough info
to answer most of your questions but the numbers might help explain
things a bit.


I said I would post something on the train-tube fares so here goes.

The new train-tube fares are as follows
Fares including zone 1
Adult Child
Peak Off Peak Peak Off Peak
Single Return Return Single Return Return
1 zone 400 - - 200 - -
2 zones 410 660* 510* 200 330* 200*
3 zones 470 780* 570* 230 390* 200*
4 zones 510 900* 570* 250 450* 200*
5 zones 580 1120* 670* 290 560* 200*
6 zones 680 1320* 670* 340 660* 200*

I don't quite get this... A single 6 zones from/to/through Z1 will be
6.80 and an off-peak day travelcard for Z 1-6 will be 6.70. Ok, hope
they will not sell singles at off-peak time then if a day travelcard
would be 10p cheaper... Or am I missing something here?

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

- £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not
touch in and out (from November this year)


This is the one that worries me, and is really steep IMO.

It also means that when one is forced to leave through another exit because
of overcrowding, such as happened to me when I went to Surrey Quays to
watch the London Marathon and we were made to go through another non-gated
exit, it means filling in a bloody form (and no doubt waiting a couple of
weeks for the refund). A bit unfair, really.

Also, that's terribly sneaky to introduce that hike in November, when
people are not expecting changes. Could they not have waited a month? It'll
catch a lot of people out.

* * * * *

Incidentally what would happen to one guy who I saw last week, who arrived
in Plaistow station, went through the open baggage gates, forgot to touch
in, turned around and validated his PAYG by touching out on the normal
gates before resuming his journey. He clearly genuinely thought he was
doing the right thing, but I bet you he'd end up under the new rules with
£8 penalty charge for two unclosed journeys (two journeys without touch-
ins). Well, it would be capped, I guess, so not the full £8 - or does the
penalty charge not count towards the daily cap?

Or does the system acknowledge this happens sometimes?

* * * * *

Another question: if someone goes to Stratford and intends to go to
Liverpool Street on the overground, touches the PAYG thingy on Platform 5,
realises there's a problem with the train and changes his mind and goes on
the Central Line instead... what happens with that touch-in on Platform 5?
In the end, I was so worried about being charged for a rail journey I never
took (it was the only journey I was making that day, so it wouldn't have
been capped) that I stayed and waited 15 minutes for my train after
touching in, rather than get the Central (I'd have been there in 12
minutes!) Typically, there was no one around to ask and if I had, I
probably would have been met with utter cluelessness as per usual.

"Neil Williams" wrote in news:1158058651.396263.199770
@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

I don't think that's a problem, indeed it's probably a good thing on
environmental and waste terms to prevent people throwing the things on
the floor. Singapore even charges a deposit on its single tickets,
which are issued on an Oyster-like card.
SNIP

Yeah but in Singapore they're completely nuts - where only until recently
were you allowed to chew gum just in case you happened to throw the gum on
the floor recently!

I wouldn't use any Singapore regulation as any kind of benchmark!

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 07:00:23 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote:

- £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not
touch in and out (from November this year)


This is the one that worries me, and is really steep IMO.

It also means that when one is forced to leave through another exit because
of overcrowding, such as happened to me when I went to Surrey Quays to
watch the London Marathon and we were made to go through another non-gated
exit, it means filling in a bloody form (and no doubt waiting a couple of
weeks for the refund). A bit unfair, really.

I would have insisted on validating my card or else wanting to
understand that the system was set up to deal with an open exit - as was
done for Sloane Square during the Chelsea Flower Show when an ungated
exit has to be used.

Also, that's terribly sneaky to introduce that hike in November, when
people are not expecting changes. Could they not have waited a month? It'll
catch a lot of people out.

I think it is better to introduce it separately in advance of the fares
revision so people can become accustomed to the change. Doing it
alongside all the fares changes would create more confusion and
difficulty for passengers and staff.

* * * * *

Incidentally what would happen to one guy who I saw last week, who arrived
in Plaistow station, went through the open baggage gates, forgot to touch
in, turned around and validated his PAYG by touching out on the normal
gates before resuming his journey. He clearly genuinely thought he was
doing the right thing, but I bet you he'd end up under the new rules with
£8 penalty charge for two unclosed journeys (two journeys without touch-
ins). Well, it would be capped, I guess, so not the full £8 - or does the
penalty charge not count towards the daily cap?

I don't understand why this would trigger anything. Judging from your
description you are saying he leant over and touched his card on the
reader on the exit side of the gate - if so no problem.

Quite why he didn't just use the manual gate validator I do not know -
these work in both entry and exit mode depending on what your card says.
If your last transaction was an entry at a logical location and within a
logical time then the validator will assume you are exiting. It employs
the same logic to determine if you are entering.

If the chap placed his card on the entry gate reader then I accept that
would create an unresolved transaction as the card will not recognise an
exit transaction. Capping is voided by the presence of unresolved
transactions - hence the constant exhortations to always touch in and
out even if you have a travelcard because you might be making a PAYG
extension trip. If you have made several extension trips from PAYG
alongside a Travelcard ticket the cap could still be invoked but only if
the card can recognise all journeys as complete for the day in question.

Or does the system acknowledge this happens sometimes?

The system can only recognise unresolved journeys if a particular mode
has been activated on the gates - emergency exits is one such situation
as are planned events like the Chelsea Flower Show mentioned above. This
was something that had to be planned in to avoid the system being a
hindrance to safe operation when very large crowds have to be handled in
a different way to normal operation.

Another question: if someone goes to Stratford and intends to go to
Liverpool Street on the overground, touches the PAYG thingy on Platform 5,
realises there's a problem with the train and changes his mind and goes on
the Central Line instead... what happens with that touch-in on Platform 5?
In the end, I was so worried about being charged for a rail journey I never
took (it was the only journey I was making that day, so it wouldn't have
been capped) that I stayed and waited 15 minutes for my train after
touching in, rather than get the Central (I'd have been there in 12
minutes!) Typically, there was no one around to ask and if I had, I
probably would have been met with utter cluelessness as per usual.

You were registered as in the system. You could quite happily have
travelled by Central Line and the exit gate anywhere on the system
(except Stratford) would have made the appropriate fare deduction. You
are not restricted to next going through the gates at Liverpool St
mainline.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!