asdf wrote:
On 11 Oct 2006 13:21:37 -0700, wrote:

When I asked how else I could have credited my card the station
assistant at Bow Road today said that I'd best queue at the station
ticket office when I want to credit pay as you go! Just the very thing
I am trying to avoid (as others have stated)!

Why not use the machines?

See above. Also, I hardly want to be feeding notes into a machine
which may reject them and cause a whole load of hassle.

The machines also accept cards. Many stations also have an Oyster-only
credit-card-only machine with a much shorter queue.


Yes, okay even if the queue was small etc., there MUST be a valid
method of me topping up by paying online. Otherwise, how am I supposed
to avail myself of the online advantage of having a record of journeys
made which, if I understand it correctly, is ONLY available if I top-up
online.

What a bloody ridiculous system. Why, if the system shows that I have
not "touched out" at any station, does it not refund the £1 initially
debited automatically, say after 2 hours?

Because that would be a fare-dodgers paradise, as you well know if you
would think about it for a second.

Well, the system is hardly failsafe is it?! With that £1 debit, I
could have spent the whole day riding around the Underground with
impunity - just as much of a fare dodgers' paradise.

Erm, only if by fare dodger you mean someone who rides around on the
Tube all day without paying just for the thrill of it...

Yes, and there are quite a few (beggars etc.) who do just that.


As for fare-dodging, when I topped up, the gates were open for about 5
or 6 seconds, during which time anyone else could have walked in or out
with impunity.

This is hardly a huge hole in the system (and you're not even
"supposed" to top up in the manner described).

Why do you say this?


As an interesting aside, what would have happened if I'd topped up,
then gone through the barrier and immediately left by an adjacent gate,
by touching out?

The gate would have refused to let you out, displaying a "seek
assistance" message.

Well they would HAVE to let me out, or else it would be false
imprisonment. Why would the system not be able to cope with a touch-in,
touch-out situation completed say within a minute or 30 seconds of each
other resulting in a no-charge? If I were really devious, and used
that as a ruse to then go on and make a journey, the system would
surely pick this up when I tried to touch out somewhere else and make
the appropriate charge at that stage.

Marc.

On 12 Oct 2006 16:33:41 -0700, wrote:

Yes, okay even if the queue was small etc., there MUST be a valid
method of me topping up by paying online. Otherwise, how am I supposed
to avail myself of the online advantage of having a record of journeys
made which, if I understand it correctly, is ONLY available if I top-up
online.

I believe you just need to top-up online once, and then you're able to
check your journey history online indefinitely.

Well, the system is hardly failsafe is it?! With that £1 debit, I
could have spent the whole day riding around the Underground with
impunity - just as much of a fare dodgers' paradise.

Erm, only if by fare dodger you mean someone who rides around on the
Tube all day without paying just for the thrill of it...

Yes, and there are quite a few (beggars etc.) who do just that.

OK, well they've always been able to do that just by buying a single
ticket. But I'm sure the vast, vast majority of fare evasion is by
people who are making a journey as a means of getting from A to B
rather than just for the fun of it.

As for fare-dodging, when I topped up, the gates were open for about 5
or 6 seconds, during which time anyone else could have walked in or out
with impunity.

This is hardly a huge hole in the system (and you're not even
"supposed" to top up in the manner described).

Why do you say this?

Which bit? It's not a huge hole because people hardly ever do what you
did, and even when you did, only one person (who was quick-thinking
and in the right place at the right time) would have had a brief
opportunity to get through the barriers without paying (and they would
still have had the problem of getting out at the other end).

The way you're "supposed" to top-up at the barriers, is by going
through and making an actual journey.

As an interesting aside, what would have happened if I'd topped up,
then gone through the barrier and immediately left by an adjacent gate,
by touching out?

The gate would have refused to let you out, displaying a "seek
assistance" message.

Well they would HAVE to let me out, or else it would be false
imprisonment.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say - are you opposing the whole
concept of automatic gates? There's no point in having them if they
can't reject your ticket and stay closed. The staff at the side gate
would certainly have let you out.

Why would the system not be able to cope with a touch-in,
touch-out situation completed say within a minute or 30 seconds of each
other resulting in a no-charge?

Because being able to open ticket gates for free creates lots of holes
in the system. Use your imagination.

If I were really devious, and used
that as a ruse to then go on and make a journey, the system would
surely pick this up when I tried to touch out somewhere else and make
the appropriate charge at that stage.

You could do the same thing at the other end - lean across and touch
"in" on the other side of the gates, then touch out and walk out for
free.

asdf wrote:
On 12 Oct 2006 16:33:41 -0700, wrote:

Yes, okay even if the queue was small etc., there MUST be a valid
method of me topping up by paying online. Otherwise, how am I supposed
to avail myself of the online advantage of having a record of journeys
made which, if I understand it correctly, is ONLY available if I top-up
online.

I believe you just need to top-up online once, and then you're able to
check your journey history online indefinitely.

Well, the system is hardly failsafe is it?! With that £1 debit, I
could have spent the whole day riding around the Underground with
impunity - just as much of a fare dodgers' paradise.

Erm, only if by fare dodger you mean someone who rides around on the
Tube all day without paying just for the thrill of it...

Yes, and there are quite a few (beggars etc.) who do just that.

OK, well they've always been able to do that just by buying a single
ticket. But I'm sure the vast, vast majority of fare evasion is by
people who are making a journey as a means of getting from A to B
rather than just for the fun of it.

As for fare-dodging, when I topped up, the gates were open for about 5
or 6 seconds, during which time anyone else could have walked in or out
with impunity.

This is hardly a huge hole in the system (and you're not even
"supposed" to top up in the manner described).

Why do you say this?

Which bit? It's not a huge hole because people hardly ever do what you
did, and even when you did, only one person (who was quick-thinking
and in the right place at the right time) would have had a brief
opportunity to get through the barriers without paying (and they would
still have had the problem of getting out at the other end).

The way you're "supposed" to top-up at the barriers, is by going
through and making an actual journey.

But that assumes (wrongly, in my case) that I will only top-up when
making a Tube journey. The ONLY time I need Pay as you Go is for
travelling on a bus. One can't top up on a bus, so how other than at a
Tube station am I supposed to top up?

The beginning of this thread had comments about the Oyster helpline
condoning the exact practice of topping up and then not making a
journey. So, it can't be that one is 'not even "supposed" to top up in
the manner described'.


As an interesting aside, what would have happened if I'd topped up,
then gone through the barrier and immediately left by an adjacent gate,
by touching out?

The gate would have refused to let you out, displaying a "seek
assistance" message.

Well they would HAVE to let me out, or else it would be false
imprisonment.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say - are you opposing the whole
concept of automatic gates? There's no point in having them if they
can't reject your ticket and stay closed. The staff at the side gate
would certainly have let you out.

No, I'm merely making the point that, with an Oyster card there is
NOTHING that states that I HAVE to make a journey to another station
before I leave the station by which I entered. I might change my mind
about a journey, decide to go back out for a cup of coffee etc., etc.,
or even just use the Oyster card as a free platform ticket. NONE of
this is contrary to any contract I have entered and consequently it is
simply wrong for £1 to be deducted from my Oyster card until such time
as I have made a journey to that value.

Why would the system not be able to cope with a touch-in,
touch-out situation completed say within a minute or 30 seconds of each
other resulting in a no-charge?

Because being able to open ticket gates for free creates lots of holes
in the system. Use your imagination.

Yes, I accept that. But the system created is so anomalous in the first
place. Don't forget, we have ONLY been discussing pay as you go. We
haven't even discussed the possibility of a Travelcard Oyster being
used for those purposes with impunity!

If I were really devious, and used
that as a ruse to then go on and make a journey, the system would
surely pick this up when I tried to touch out somewhere else and make
the appropriate charge at that stage.

You could do the same thing at the other end - lean across and touch
"in" on the other side of the gates, then touch out and walk out for
free.

I didn't think it was possible to reach across the barrier as
suggested. I'll have a better look on Monday when I next use the Tube.
If it's that easy, what's to stop someone travelling in from Zone 6 to
Zone 1 having 2 Oyster cards, one for each zone, and each time doing
what you suggest?

Marc.

On 13 Oct 2006 09:26:09 -0700, wrote:

But that assumes (wrongly, in my case) that I will only top-up when
making a Tube journey. The ONLY time I need Pay as you Go is for
travelling on a bus. One can't top up on a bus, so how other than at a
Tube station am I supposed to top up?

The other options are at an Oyster Ticket Stop, or using auto-topup.

No, I'm merely making the point that, with an Oyster card there is
NOTHING that states that I HAVE to make a journey to another station
before I leave the station by which I entered. I might change my mind
about a journey, decide to go back out for a cup of coffee etc., etc.,
or even just use the Oyster card as a free platform ticket. NONE of
this is contrary to any contract I have entered and consequently it is
simply wrong for £1 to be deducted from my Oyster card until such time
as I have made a journey to that value.

I can't comment on the legal situation, but in a couple of weeks the
penalty will increase from £1 to £4, so they don't seem too concerned.

As for whether it's wrong in the moral sense, given the potential for
fraud, I think the current arrangement is acceptable, provided that if
you decide not to travel, you can return to the assistance window and
have the journey you've just started quickly and easily "undone".

Why would the system not be able to cope with a touch-in,
touch-out situation completed say within a minute or 30 seconds of each
other resulting in a no-charge?

Because being able to open ticket gates for free creates lots of holes
in the system. Use your imagination.

Yes, I accept that. But the system created is so anomalous in the first
place. Don't forget, we have ONLY been discussing pay as you go. We
haven't even discussed the possibility of a Travelcard Oyster being
used for those purposes with impunity!

In that case you're not really opening ticket gates for "free",
because you've already paid a large sum of money for unlimited travel.
And I don't believe the same Travelcard (whether on Oyster or not) can
be used twice in succession at the same gateline, unless a certain
time period has elapsed.

I didn't think it was possible to reach across the barrier as
suggested. I'll have a better look on Monday when I next use the Tube.
If it's that easy, what's to stop someone travelling in from Zone 6 to
Zone 1 having 2 Oyster cards, one for each zone, and each time doing
what you suggest?

You wouldn't even need to, because with a Travelcard you don't need to
have a touch-in and touch-out for each journey, provided you stay
within your zones. (And the answer is that there's very little to stop
someone.)

wrote
[...]
But that assumes (wrongly, in my case) that I will only top-up when
making a Tube journey. The ONLY time I need Pay as you Go is for
travelling on a bus. One can't top up on a bus, so how other than at a
Tube station am I supposed to top up?

In a recent (August) thread 'Oyster on Buses' it was noted that auto
top-up was now working on buses.

I googled.groups [oyster top-up bus]

Answer
Once activated, your pay as you go balance will automatically be topped

up whenever it falls below £5 and you touch it on any card reader
(Tube, bus, DLR or tram) but not a ticket machine.

There was also a note that pre-activated oyster cards were now
obtainable so even the initial tube/tramstop vistit was not needed.
==

--
Mike D

On 14 Oct 2006 00:23:57 GMT, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:

But that assumes (wrongly, in my case) that I will only top-up when
making a Tube journey. The ONLY time I need Pay as you Go is for
travelling on a bus. One can't top up on a bus, so how other than at a
Tube station am I supposed to top up?

At an Oyster Ticket Stop (newsagent). These exist all over the London
bus area. Locations can be found at:

http://www.tfl-ticketlocator.co.uk/


As you say, there's also auto-top-up.


For completeness, you can also top up at certain National Rail
stations. There's a list at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ystercard.html

wrote:
asdf wrote:
On 11 Oct 2006 13:21:37 -0700, wrote:

When I asked how else I could have credited my card the station
assistant at Bow Road today said that I'd best queue at the
station ticket office when I want to credit pay as you go! Just
the very thing I am trying to avoid (as others have stated)!

Why not use the machines?

See above. Also, I hardly want to be feeding notes into a machine
which may reject them and cause a whole load of hassle.

The machines also accept cards. Many stations also have an
Oyster-only credit-card-only machine with a much shorter queue.


Yes, okay even if the queue was small etc., there MUST be a valid
method of me topping up by paying online. Otherwise, how am I
supposed to avail myself of the online advantage of having a record
of journeys made which, if I understand it correctly, is ONLY
available if I top-up online.

It works on my auto top-up card. I suspect it works on any card that
you have registered on your online account.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)